Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

I'll just go and ask my wife about all the penises on show in changing rooms...hang on a mo...

...right, she's never seen one.

 

[newfhouse]

Same here.

What’s the same? I don’t know what you mean, given that my mind is not fully made up. I have stated here previously that I acknowledge that there are some difficult but rare edge cases that I don’t have ready solutions for. I do think we should look at other jurisdictions that have gone further down the self ID route to learn what works, what doesn’t, and what accommodations and mitigations might be sensible. Is that where we disagree?

 

[multitool]

Aurora will be along to tell you that sexcrimes by trans women in the 40 countries with Self ID are recorded as female crimes so even though there are loads of them because Aurora says so, there is no evidence that there are any, apart from Aurora's stock of US newspaper clips she gets from the trans hate sites she hangs out on.

 

[monkers]

The law doesn't compell people's language as you well know. If you don't mind seeing male genitalia in the changing rooms etc., that's up to you. You don't get to consent on behalf of every other woman and girl who uses those facilities and who doesn't want to see surprise penis in the Women's single sex area. Should they just ignore it and look away?

'It's just a penis... nothing to be concerned about..'

You keep on coming back to the same opposing argument, 'you don't get to decide'. Actually I do get to decide what bothers me and what doesn't. Also I have a vote at election times - that's how we voice our opinions democratically rather than targetting individuals on the internet.

In relation to accidentally seeing genitals, these were men, I said accidentally as they weren't flashing, just got caught changing at the beach for example while trying to be discrete. It takes more than the accidental sight of a dick to upset me.

I like to change privately too, but I wouldn't be screaming for security if somebody saw me naked, whatever their sex/gender.

 

[AuroraSaab]

What’s the same?

That I also find myself increasing less sympathetic towards any compromise that women might have been prepared to make in giving up language or single sex spaces. When you have a thread that endlessly calls people fascists and Nazis for defending the need for single sex spaces, and defends aggressive transactivism, if anything it shows how much single sex spaces are needed.

I've suggested compromises - Open category in sport, third unisex spaces etc. These have been rejected as 'othering' transwomen. You seem to be trying to establish some middle ground, but I think you'll find most transactivists aren't willing to compromise on access to single sex spaces and facilities.

It's not a conservative position to think that women should be allowed some things exclusively to themselves. We allow the black community, the gay community, and the trans community to exclude others and have services and spaces specifically for them only. Yet here we are discussing when and how it's OK to have males in women's prisons as though it's a perfectly sensible proposition instead of a bonkers idea that should never have got off the ground.

 

[multitool]

That I also find myself increasing less sympathetic towards any compromise that women might have been prepared to make in giving up language or single sex spaces. When you have a thread that endlessly calls people fascists and Nazis for defending the need for single sex spaces, and defends aggressive transactivism, if anything it shows how much single sex spaces are needed.

You are just an innately dishonest person.

Nobody has called you a fascist or a Nazi, and nobody has defended what you call "aggressive transactivism".

Mind you, none of the so-called "aggressive" transactivists have actual fascists on their side.

 

[monkers]

That I also find myself increasing less sympathetic towards any compromise that women might have been prepared to make in giving up language or single sex spaces. When you have a thread that endlessly calls people fascists and Nazis for defending the need for single sex spaces, and defends aggressive transactivism, if anything it shows how much single sex spaces are needed.

I've suggested compromises - Open category in sport, third unisex spaces etc. These have been rejected as 'othering' transwomen. You seem to be trying to establish some middle ground, but I think you'll find most transactivists aren't willing to compromise on access to single sex spaces and facilities.

It's not a conservative position to think that women should be allowed some things exclusively to themselves. We allow the black community, the gay community, and the trans community to exclude others and have services and spaces specifically for them only. Yet here we are discussing when and how it's OK to have males in women's prisons as though it's a perfectly sensible proposition instead of a bonkers idea that should never have got off the ground.

More dishonesty - you and your's have campaigned to have trans facilities closed down.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You keep on coming back to the same opposing argument, 'you don't get to decide'. Actually I do get to decide what bothers me and what doesn't. Also I have a vote at election times - that's how we voice our opinions democratically rather than targetting individuals on the internet.

You don't get to decide what bothers women though. And if you're going to campaign to change the law you can't really moan when people who are affected organise to oppose those changes.

In relation to accidentally seeing genitals, these were men, I said accidentally as they weren't flashing, just got caught changing at the beach for example while trying to be discrete. It takes more than the accidental sight of a dick to upset me.

I like to change privately too, but I wouldn't be screaming for security if somebody saw me naked, whatever their sex/gender.

I think most of us can see the difference between accidentally seeing someone's genitals on a public beach that's open to all and being in a facility or service that is supposedly single sex and finding it not to be so.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You are just an innately dishonest person.

Nobody has called you a fascist or a Nazi, and nobody has defended what you call "aggressive transactivism".

Mind you, none of the so-called "aggressive" transactivists have actual fascists on their side.

You've spent this whole thread equating anything pro women's rights with fascism. Stopping women from meeting, demonstrating outside when they do, hounding women out of jobs, demanding no debate, and holding up signs saying 'Decapitate Terfs' is a level of authoritarianism you never see from mainstream UK feminists, yet it is a built-in feature of UK transactivism.

And every time the public see the men in black shouting abuse at women, or the protestors with their sweary placards, or the attempts to shut down debate, it brings transactivism further into the daylight and exposes it as the authoritarian misogynistic sham that it is.

 

[multitool]

You've spent this whole thread equating anything pro women's rights with fascism.

Another lie.

You just can't help it, can you.

 

[AuroraSaab]

More dishonesty - you and your's have campaigned to have trans facilities closed down.

If that's true in the UK I'd like to see a link. I haven't campaigned for anything to be shut down, unless you call removing men from women's sports and prisons 'shutting down' trans facilities.

 

[classic33]

It's men who are predators. It's men who make women uncomfortable in single sex spaces. And it's an overwhelming statistical fact that men commit crime of a sexual nature far, far more than women. Not all men, of course, but enough of them for it to be a big problem, and enough of them to make us uncomfortable around men in certain circumstances.

It's men who are the issue. Men. Regardless of whether they want to be men or don't want to be men. Regardless of whether they identify as men or don't identify as men. Regardless of whether they dress as a stereotypical man, or dress in stereotypical women's clothes.

Nothing magical happens when you say 'I'm a woman' to change that.

We all have partners, sons, brothers who are lovely, who we would trust in any circumstances. I don't think that means they should be allowed in women's changing rooms or women's prisons. Neither do they.

What you want is a free pass for certain kinds of men. You think that somehow all the feelings of discomfort and safeguarding that apply when a man is in women's single sex spaces shouldn't apply to these men. You seek to privilege a particular group of men over other men, and over the feelings and rights of women.

You'd rather accuse people of equating transwomen with sex offenders than face up to the fact that some men aren't genuinely suffering from body dysphoria. Because if you admit that some abusers are just pretending to be trans then the whole 'You are who you say you are' house of cards falls down.

And the only way you can stop women from telling you this, and telling you they won't accept this assault on their rights, is by calling them fascists and Nazis.

Just men?

Mentioned her, Vicki Bevan, earlier.
"After Bevan was arrested in October last year, she pleaded guilty to 34 offences in January including:

• Rape
• Two counts of sexual assault
• Four counts of sexual assault by penetration
• One count of attempted sexual assault by penetration
• Inciting a child to engage in sexual activity
• Three counts of sexual activity with a child
• 17 counts of making indecent images of children
• Three counts of distributing indecent photographs of a child
• Two counts of possessing extreme pornography

 

[AndyRM]

Went to a vigil for Brianna Ghey in Newcastle this evening. It was beautiful.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Not all men of course, Classic. But prosecution wise it's 98% of sexual offence cases that come to court in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...iminal-justice-system-2019#offence-analysis-1

 

[classic33]

Gay folk were tolerated until they forced it down our throats by waving rainbow flags and demanding equal marriage rights; black people were acceptable until they got uppity and started expecting respect and reminding us of history; we could cope with disabled people until they became visible and started asking for reasonable adjustments in the workplace.

I still think I sit somewhere in the middle ground of this issue but I have to say that with every post from you I find my sympathy with your position diminishes.

I'm in that group of people, and the only adjustment, reasonable or otherwise, is to be allowed to live my life without people telling me "You can't do that!".
Normally said because they thought me incapable of doing anything they could.

It's led to me taking the council to an industrial tribunal,* with them treating it as a joke right until the summons arrived via the legal department. Even at the tribunal, they refused to take it seriously until they were reminded it had the same powers as any court of law.

I was born with the disability, others have been hit with it later in life. How they manage I can't work out. Like you, I'm on the fence on it. But at present the voices that say we shouldn't be treated as normal people are getting louder.

*The department involved hadn't even heard of the DDA 1995, thinking it was something I'd made up. They ignored the paperwork handed over to them, actually binning it.