Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

I declared my interest very clearly. You have declared no personal interest, but pedalling misinformation. Which organisation are you campaigning for? WPUK? LGB Alliance?

I'm not a member of either. My personal interest is that I'm female. Anybody can read this thread and see my arguments; I'm happy to let them stand on their own merit. You can fall back on your name calling as much as you like.

 

[monkers]

I'm not a member of either. My personal interest is that I'm female. Anybody can read this thread and see my arguments; I'm happy to let them stand on their own merit. You can fall back on your name calling as much as you like.

I'm female too, as are others on this thread; but we are not subscribing to conspiracy theory, misinformation, or misplaced fear, or moral panic.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Highlighting the demands of transactivism to open up all female single sex spaces and services, from changing rooms to prisons to sports, is not misinformation. And women objecting to this demand is not fearful or a moral panic.

Again, you fall back on this disingenuous stuff because the prison debacle in Scotland has shown that the gender identity premise of 'You are who you say you are' falls apart when people clearly are not always what they say they are. And once we all go back to acknowledging that caveat, then the whole issue of any trans identifying men having access to any women's single sex spaces is up for question again.

What you can't stand is that this whole ideology is out in the daylight and up for scrutiny after years of No Debate.

 

[monkers]

Highlighting the demands of transactivism to open up all female single sex spaces and services, from changing rooms to prisons to sports, is not misinformation. And women objecting to this demand is not fearful or a moral panic.

Again, you fall back on this disingenuous stuff because the prison debacle in Scotland has shown that the gender identity premise of 'You are who you say you are' falls apart when people clearly are not always what they say they are. And once we all go back to acknowledging that caveat, then the whole issue of any trans identifying men having access to any women's single sex spaces is up for question again.

What you can't stand is that this whole ideology is out in the daylight and up for scrutiny after years of No Debate.

Another bogus argument. This thread was going with the same tired arguments before the Bryson case. Even then what you and the media say doesn't reflect the full reality. Let's not forget that Bryson had no opportunity to mix with other prisoners.

 

[multitool]

Are we back to the point where we ask Aurora if she can provide evidence of the huge ingress of hordes of fake trans women into women's spaces and she pivots onto something else?

The reason she and icowden are so uncomfortable with the murder of Brianna Ghey is that it is very likely to be a palpable example of the harm that they are doing, whereas they cannot cite anything other than dogma.

It's not about "sides".

It's about actual, real people's lives. Not imaginary people with imaginary threats from trans women.

 

[icowden]

The reason she and icowden are so uncomfortable with the murder of Brianna Ghey is that it is very likely to be a palpable example of the harm that they are doing, whereas they cannot cite anything other than dogma.

Thanks again for tell me what I think.

I am uncomfortable with using the murder of Brianna Ghey in this thread because it is sub-judice and as such any motivations for the murder should not be publicly speculated about. Let Justice run its course as the Police have asked.

The point that @AuroraSaab has been making over and over again to your tone deaf ears, is that most women don't have an issue with people who are genuinely trans, who have decided that mutilating their body and taking hormones is the only way they can find peace in their mental health.

What many women have an issue with is that as trans rights become more prominent it is far more likely that deviant men will take advantage. This is illustrated by the footage appearing from men claiming to be trans but displaying sexually deviant behaviour.

Whilst people who are genuinely trans have many problems to overcome, they deserve to be treated respectfully and also to receive the best help and advice that they can. Routinely prescribing hormone blockers to vulnerable children is wrong. We also need to ensure that the hard won protections that apply to women are not removed so that deviant men can take advantage.

I'm sure in your world everyone is lovely and this would never happen. For the rest of us we have encountered men who would take advantage of anything.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I can start posting the mugshots of men who claim to be transgender who have been moved to women's jails as a result of US self-id laws if you like. There's quite a few. Or I can list the transwomen who have been taking prizes and places in women's sports recently. Quite a few of those. Or recent UK 'transwomen' sex offenders - there were 2 this week. I don't personally think the criminals ones are genuinely transgender, but I can post the mugshots if you like and we can play 'Which jail should 'she' be in?'.

Actually, I could have done that when you started with the mugshots of violent UK women and asking 'Which jail should she be in?'. I didn't because I don't think everybody who says they are transgender actually is. But if you want to claim all these individuals as part of the genuine transgender community, you're welcome to.

Transgender people are a safe demographic in the UK. There hasn't been a murder of a transgender person for 4 years. There were 9 in total from 2008 to 2017. On average, since records started, it's one a year. Safer than other groups, including women.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

https://unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/

There were 3 under 18's killed by knives last week - by people of similar age allegedly. We have an epidemic of youth knife crime, and an epidemic of bullying. Any murder is one too many but to suggest that somehow women talking about their rights is responsible for this is incident is ghoulish band wagoning and just another way of trying to stop the discussion.

Women who have men placed in their jails are not imaginary. Women who want same sex carers are not imaginary. Women losing out in sports to transwomen are not imaginary. They all have real lives. It's just that their real lives don't matter as much as the feelings of the men who seek access to those spaces and services apparently.

 

[monkers]

I can start posting the mugshots of men who claim to be transgender who have been moved to women's jails as a result of US self-id laws if you like. There's quite a few. Or I can list the transwomen who have been taking prizes and places in women's sports recently. Quite a few of those. Or recent UK 'transwomen' sex offenders - there were 2 this week. I don't personally think the criminals ones are genuinely transgender, but I can post the mugshots if you like and we can play 'Which jail should 'she' be in?'.

Actually, I could have done that when you started with the mugshots of violent UK women and asking 'Which jail should she be in?'. I didn't because I don't think everybody who says they are transgender actually is. But if you want to claim all these individuals as part of the genuine transgender community, you're welcome to.

Transgender people are a safe demographic in the UK. There hasn't been a murder of a transgender person for 4 years. There were 9 in total from 2008 to 2017. On average, since records started, it's one a year. Safer than other groups, including women.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

https://unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/

There were 3 under 18's killed by knives last week - by people of similar age allegedly. We have an epidemic of youth knife crime, and an epidemic of bullying. Any murder is one too many but to suggest that somehow women talking about their rights is responsible for this is incident is ghoulish band wagoning and just another way of trying to stop the discussion.

You could start by using the terms 'transgender', 'trans', 'trans people', 'trans men', and 'trans women' correctly. I might then begin to believe that you have at a modicum of empathy of trans lives. I have already provided an explainer of how this works, and explained why it matters in relation to accuracy in reporting.

I believe that your refusal to do so is because it doesn't suit your purposes; indeed correct observations might damage your conspiracy and malign trans people.

 

[newfhouse]

I agree to some extent. It worked for years that women accepted transwomen in spaces like toilets because there were very few of them and there was an unwritten understanding that this small number of individuals were genuinely suffering from dysphoria. Even if it made women uncomfortable there was a willingness to accommodate this group.

This was before transactivism took hold and started demanding that anybody could be a woman and all single sex provision had to be open to anyone who simply said they were a woman, whether it was sports, prisons, or rape crisis centres.

The fact is that that social contract of mutual understanding has now been lost so it's not surprising that many women are reluctant to make the accommodations that they were previously.

Gay folk were tolerated until they forced it down our throats by waving rainbow flags and demanding equal marriage rights; black people were acceptable until they got uppity and started expecting respect and reminding us of history; we could cope with disabled people until they became visible and started asking for reasonable adjustments in the workplace.

I still think I sit somewhere in the middle ground of this issue but I have to say that with every post from you I find my sympathy with your position diminishes.

 

[multitool]

Spain has just joined the other 40 countries with Self ID. Aurora will tell us that it's impossible to know if GRC'd people are using the system to predate because their crimes will be (so she tells us) recorded as female crimes.

Aurora then tells us, with her usual stunning lack of self-awareness that there hasn't been a murder of a trans woman for 4 years.

How would she know? If the victim had a GRC it would be recorded as a murder of a woman.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You could start by using the terms 'transgender', 'trans', 'trans people', 'trans men', and 'trans women' correctly. I might then begin to believe that you have at a modicum of empathy of trans lives. I have already provided an explainer of how this works, and explained why it matters in relation to accuracy in reporting.

I believe that your refusal to do so is because it doesn't suit your purposes; indeed correct observations might damage your conspiracy and malign trans people.

I'm not sure you get to impose the terms people use for men who identify as women. We can just use the perfectly accurate and correct scientific terms if you like, but I suspect you wouldn't like that either.

Again, if you wish to claim every man who claims to be a woman as a genuine transgender person, have at it. I'm not sure it helps the argument for admitting them to single sex spaces.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Gay folk were tolerated until they forced it down our throats by waving rainbow flags and demanding equal marriage rights; black people were acceptable until they got uppity and started expecting respect and reminding us of history; we could cope with disabled people until they became visible and started asking for reasonable adjustments in the workplace.

I still think I sit somewhere in the middle ground of this issue but I have to say that with every post from you I find my sympathy with your position diminishes.

Same here. You can extend your compassion to transwomen but not to the women whose rights they seek to undermine.

What rights did gay people seek to take from others? None. What rights did white people lose when black people were given equality in law? None. How did accommodation for disabled people disadvantage the able bodied? It didn't.

These groups sought nothing but equality in law. There's a clash of rights in this issue and comparing it to these movements is disingenuous.

 

[monkers]

I'm not sure you get to impose the terms people use for men who identify as women. We can just use the perfectly accurate and correct scientific terms if you like, but I suspect you wouldn't like that either.

Again, if you wish to claim every man who claims to be a woman as a genuine transgender person, have at it. I'm not sure it helps the argument for admitting them to single sex spaces.

The law has ruled on this. The law is bigger than you or me. Legally trans women are women. What people have in their knickers is no concern of mine, and if I accidentally see something a person's genitals as has happened, I'm not bothered. Europeans are nearly so prudish as many Brits with sticks up their arses. Farage, for example, is offended by the sight of a woman discretely breastfeeding in public. We are still all animals despite the airs and graces.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Aurora then tells us, with her usual stunning lack of self-awareness that there hasn't been a murder of a trans woman for 4 years.

How would she know? If the victim had a GRC it would be recorded as a murder of a woman.

Because it would have been in the UK newspapers and transactivists and people like you would have been highlighting it, GRC or not. Apart from the ONS crime stats, do you honestly think there aren't trans groups that record these things?

Here's one. There are others.

https://transrespect.org/en/research/tmm/

 

[AuroraSaab]

The law has ruled on this. The law is bigger than you or me. Legally trans women are women. What people have in their knickers is no concern of mine, and if I accidentally see something a person's genitals as has happened, I'm not bothered. Europeans are nearly so prudish as many Brits with sticks up their arses. Farage, for example, is offended by the sight of a woman discretely breastfeeding in public. We are still all animals despite the airs and graces.

The law doesn't compell people's language as you well know. If you don't mind seeing male genitalia in the changing rooms etc., that's up to you. You don't get to consent on behalf of every other woman and girl who uses those facilities and who doesn't want to see surprise penis in the Women's single sex area. Should they just ignore it and look away?

'It's just a penis... nothing to be concerned about..'