Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

None of the truth matters to AS, but for the benefit of other readers, the truth is that at the time of their incarceration, prostitution was an offence in the Republic of Ireland. One of the three was a visitor from Indonesia who fell foul of that law. Another was a trans woman who was incarcerated for prostitution before Self-Id. The third was a seriously nasty individual that anyone should be afraid of.

So you agree that @AuroraSaab's assertion was entirely correct.

The law regarding prostitution has since changed in the RofI, under the present law, two of those prisoners would no longer be committing an offence. There were plenty of women incarcerated at Limerick for the same offence.

So three transwomen were incarcerated in a women's prison as AS described.

Although they were incarcerated in the estate of Limerick prison, they were held in an old condemned wing separate from other prisoners. The facilities are so poor that slopping out continues there. The prisoners were held in solitary confinement for 23 hours per day, without access to each other, let alone being allowed to trot around the prison estate with access to others.

So three transwomen were incarcerated in a women's prison as AS described and held in what amounts to solitary confinement?

Keith Adams of the Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice said: “The prolonged solitary confinement—periods longer than 16 days— experienced by two transgender women in Limerick Prison is at the sharpest end of this highly restrictive measure.

"When the only means of accommodating trans prisoners is through solitary confinement, we need to pause to consider the structural factors causing the restrictive practices. Prisons must have the resources to ensure that every prisoner has the maximum time out of cell available to them.”

The IPS said all prisoners were accommodated according to their legal gender.

So you advocate that transwomen should be held in a women's prison but under conditions that make them entirely safe and which would be considered an abuse of their human rights? Conditions that I think Amnesty would challenge. That's fine in your book, as the alternative would be to give these individuals access to women who would then be rendered unsafe?

Surely a better solution is needed. A women's prison is clearly inappropriate for them.

 

[multitool]

The lie is that these trans women are a threat to other women in women's prisons.

Effectively, they aren't in women's spaces because they are segregated.

Surely a better solution is needed. A women's prison is clearly inappropriate for them.

Not necessarily. In the UK these trans women are assessed, and they are placed wherever deemed appropriate, by experienced professionals, and not Internet squawkers like AS

 

[icowden]

The lie is that these trans women are a threat to other women in women's prisons.
Effectively, they aren't in women's spaces because they are segregated.

So under new gender recognition laws how long before legal challenges are made to the segregation?

 

[multitool]

So under new gender recognition laws how long before legal challenges are made to the segregation?

You are still talking about Ireland, yes?

You do realise they've had self ID for 7.5 years, yes?

 

[classic33]

So under new gender recognition laws how long before legal challenges are made to the segregation?

Limerick Prison, as a whole, is being increased in size, more so the women's section. Due in the main to a 2012 report
https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0117/311104-limerickprison/

One* of those in segregation is there following an assault on a prison worker. And if it were a male prison, they'd be in solitary confinement, for the assault.
*Currently on trial for this assault.

AuroraSaab has previously said there were a dozen being held in similar conditions in Dublin. Now there's only nine there.

Parts of the original prison remain in use today.

 

[AuroraSaab]

AS's motto - never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

None of the truth matters to AS, but for the benefit of other readers, the truth is that at the time of their incarceration, prostitution was an offence in the Republic of Ireland. One of the three was a visitor from Indonesia who fell foul of that law. Another was a trans woman who was incarcerated for prostitution before Self-Id. The third was a seriously nasty individual that anyone should be afraid of.

The law regarding prostitution has since changed in the RofI, under the present law, two of those prisoners would no longer be committing an offence. There were plenty of women incarcerated at Limerick for the same offence.

These are the unfortunate transwomen who simply 'Fell foul of the law' and were held in the women's wing of Limerick jail in the last year. The wing has 28 beds, I believe.

Jailed for possession of thousands of child abuse images of children between ages of 2 and 16. Some reports suggest they have now been released.

https://www.thejournal.ie/woman-jailed-criminal-court-5392090-Mar2021/

Convicted of 10 counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child. Has an Irish GRC equivalent.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261

Convicted of 7 counts of threatening to kill. Has an Irish GRC equivalent.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ire...o-rape-and-kill-mother-adjourned-1388617.html

Although they were incarcerated in the estate of Limerick prison, they were held in an old condemned wing separate from other prisoners. The facilities are so poor that slopping out continues there. The prisoners were held in solitary confinement for 23 hours per day, without access to each other, let alone being allowed to trot around the prison estate with access to others.

They were held in the women's wing in the same conditions as the women. Prisons aren't nice places so I'm not sure why having to slop out like everyone else is relevant unless we are supposed to sympathise with them.

The reason they are kept in their cell or accompanied by 2 officers when moving round the wing is because they are dangerous men.

But typical AS, with her usual spin.

I think it's you who are trying to spin placing men in women's prisons as not a big deal.

But this is it isn't it? If these men say they are women, they are women aren't they? You've got yourself in a position where you can't pick and choose when they are and aren't women, so you find yourself doing increasingly ridiculous mental gymnastics in order to justify the ridiculous notion of 3 men in a 28 bed women's prison wing.

 

[multitool]

We've done this all already and you know full well that isn't true.

Just stop lying.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The lie is that these trans women are a threat to other women in women's prisons.
Effectively, they aren't in women's spaces because they are segregated.

The ones in Ireland are in their cells or accompanied by 2 prison officers when moving around the wing precisely because they are a threat to the women prisoners.

Not necessarily. In the UK these trans women are assessed, and they are placed wherever deemed appropriate, by experienced professionals, and not Internet squawkers like AS

In Ireland if you have the equivalent of a GRC you go to a women's jail if you wish. That's the whole point of a GRC. It's what would happen in Scotland if the law on self ID went through.

Now, thanks to an increasing number of cases, it's coming to light that it isn't appropriate and is causing problems. So the prison policy needs to change. That's what you do when a policy isn't working.

 

[multitool]

The ones in Ireland are in their cells or accompanied by 2 prison officers when moving around the wing precisely because they are a threat to the women prisoners.

So the threat is mitigated so it is no longer a threat.

You can stop clutching your pearls

In Ireland if you have the equivalent of a GRC you go to a women's jail if you wish. That's the whole point of a GRC. It's what would happen in Scotland if the law on self ID went through.

We've done this already. This isn't true. Stop lying.

There is already a policy regarding GRCs in Scottish prisons. It's been the case since 2014. Self ID makes no difference to prison policy.

 

[AuroraSaab]

We've done this all already and you know full well that isn't true. Just stop lying.

What isn't true? That there weren't 3 male sex offenders in a 28 bed women's wing in Limerick jail?

You've got yourself in the same position as your fellow poster. 'People are who they say they are' so you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that there might be males who are gaming the system or who aren't genuinely dysphoric.

 

[multitool]

What isn't true?

That Scottish Self ID laws affect prison policy. They don't. Stop lying.

 

[classic33]

These are the unfortunate transwomen who simply 'Fell foul of the law' and were held in the women's wing of Limerick jail in the last year. The wing has 28 beds, I believe.

Jailed for possession of thousands of child abuse images of children between ages of 2 and 16. Some reports suggest they have now been released.

https://www.thejournal.ie/woman-jailed-criminal-court-5392090-Mar2021/

Convicted of 10 counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child. Has an Irish GRC equivalent.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261

Convicted of 7 counts of threatening to kill. Has an Irish GRC equivalent.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ire...o-rape-and-kill-mother-adjourned-1388617.html

They were held in the women's wing in the same conditions as the women. Prisons aren't nice places so I'm not sure why having to slop out like everyone else is relevant unless we are supposed to sympathise with them.

The reason they are kept in their cell or accompanied by 2 officers when moving round the wing is because they are dangerous men.

I think it's you who are trying to spin placing men in women's prisons as not a big deal.

But this is it isn't it? If these men say they are women, they are women aren't they? You've got yourself in a position where you can't pick and choose when they are and aren't women, so you find yourself doing increasingly ridiculous mental gymnastics in order to justify the ridiculous notion of 3 men in a 28 bed women's prison wing.

You've previously said you're not bothered about Barbie Kardashian, other than you refuse to accept/respect the laws of another country. You'll use her when it suits your needs. The state recognises the system, and treats them as per their legal status. You refuse to accept this.

There is no such thing as an Irish GRC equivalent, a Gender Recognition Certificate is issued by a judge, and all applications require
"a Statutory Declaration, which must be witnessed by either a:

Peace Commissioner
Notary Public
Commissioner for Oaths
Solicitor"

Not quite as easy as you keep on making out.

There's three in prison, but one has been released. Of the three you've linked to/mentioned, only one is escorted by two staff.

There's parts of Limerick prison over 200 years old, still in use. It's an English built prison, now run by another country.

 

[winjim]

snip


Once again the YouTube algorithm serving things up to me but here's an interview with Eminem in which he uses the word 'gender' where you might expect him to say 'genre'.


View: https://youtube.com/shorts/C-Ic4QUHD4k?feature=share

And some more linguistic fun for @theclaud as it turns out 'gender' (not on this chart but somewhere slightly downstream of 'genus') is etymologically related to the name Kevin.


View: https://twitter.com/olivia__ms/status/1626988049727909888?t=cDF0I4Txv-thyeE_XOkFWg&s=19


And 'sex' to 'saxophone'


View: https://twitter.com/olivia__ms/status/1624194783835979776?t=GKtriwkDb6yjn9eoCisSgA&s=19


It's interesting that 'sex' comes from 'cut' or 'divide'. I didn't know that but it makes sense of course.

And the second chart is ironic since the saxophone is the least sexy of all the musical instruments.

 

[newfhouse]

There are two rooms, one with , 5000 men one with 5000 women.
4900 of those men are sexual predators. 100 of those women are sexual predators.

Sorry, what? Do these numbers have some hidden meaning or are they simply your own personal fantasy?

 

[theclaud]

And some more linguistic fun for @theclaud as it turns out 'gender' (not on this chart but somewhere slightly downstream of 'genus') is etymologically related to the name Kevin.


View: https://twitter.com/olivia__ms/status/1626988049727909888?t=cDF0I4Txv-thyeE_XOkFWg&s=19


And 'sex' to 'saxophone'


View: https://twitter.com/olivia__ms/status/1624194783835979776?t=GKtriwkDb6yjn9eoCisSgA&s=19


It's interesting that 'sex' comes from 'cut' or 'divide'. I didn't know that but it makes sense of course.

Thanks! This thread has been short on fun for quite a while now!