Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

And you think this is humane treatment that could not be challenged in a Court of Law on the basis that as they have a GRC they are a biological woman and therefore entitled to all of the rights that other women have? How many other women are treated like this?

So if trans women are women, shouldn't you be rightly appalled by their treatment? If not, then presumably you are not counting them as women?

I think we may have reached "all women are equal but some women are more equal than others"...

No I don't think this is humane treatment. I've said all along what my considerations are; that the placement of trans women prisoners should be by means of risk assessment, and that in the case of trans women committing physical or sexual violence against women, then the placement should ordinarily be contemporaneous with the crime.

In the case of RofI, by the way, there is a marked difference to the UK. In the UK a judge can recommend a placement, but ultimately it is for the prison service to decide by risk assessment. In the RofI, the judge determines the appropriate placement and that can not be overturned by the prison service.

The issue being addressed is whether or not these prisoners are causing harm to others. It's clear from the control measures that they are not.

AS did not post about these prisoners for their concern. She posted to present a case that they are a danger to other prisoners. They are not, it is a false claim. Notice that AS presents no evidence that they are - it's just alarmism.

 

[monkers]

Again, this is just a ridiculous argument. 'They aren't a danger because they are so dangerous they have to have 2 guards with them if they leave their cell..... therefore they aren't a danger....' . It's an utterly bonkers argument for placing transwomen in the female estate. It's a very good argument for placing them in the male estate though, where they can have more freedom and women will be safe. Thanks for making it for me, several times over.

Are really that clueless about what a risk assessment is, and what control measures are? I believe you must be.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The issue being addressed is whether or not these prisoners are causing harm to others. It's clear from the control measures that they are not.

AS did not post about these prisoners for their concern. She posted to present a case that they are a danger to other prisoners. They are not, it is a false claim. Notice that AS presents no evidence that they are - it's just alarmism.

They are not an immediate danger because they are escorted everywhere. The evidence that they are dangerous is that they have to be escorted everywhere. How ridiculous that you imagine that the fact they are escorted everywhere is a good enough argument for placing them in a women's jail.

The reason they are a risk is because they are men not because they are transgender.

 

[icowden]

AS did not post about these prisoners for their concern. She posted to present a case that they are a danger to other prisoners. They are not, it is a false claim. Notice that AS presents no evidence that they are - it's just alarmism.

Why is the claim false?

They are effectively being kept in solitary confinement as they are a danger to other prisoners. If they were not, then they would be mixing with the other female prisoners.

If anything this illustrates that they are highly dangerous. It is therefore very arguable that a women's prison is inappropriate. Would they still be considered highly dangerous if they were in a men's prison? I doubt it.

 

[multitool]

They are dangerous because they are dangerous.

You get dangerous cis women too held under the same conditions.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Which female prisoners are held under the same conditions? Single cell and accompanied at all times by officers? Rose West and Myra Hindley aren't/weren't. Serial killer Johanna Dennehy, serving a whole life tarrif, is held under normal high security conditions.

It's being male that adds an extra layer of concern. And that doesn't disappear just because they stop identifying as male.

 

[multitool]

Which female prisoners are held under the same conditions? Single cell and accompanied at all times by officers?

Pretty much anybody with severe mental illness.

 

[monkers]

They are not an immediate danger because they are escorted everywhere. The evidence that they are dangerous is that they have to be escorted everywhere. How ridiculous that you imagine that the fact they are escorted everywhere is a good enough argument for placing them in a women's jail.

The reason they are a risk is because they are men not because they are transgender.

You are so mixed up.

I have never said or suggested that they are in the right place.

What I am saying is that you are making much out of them being as being a danger to other prisoners. The control measures put in place ensure that they are not.

At no point have I said that without control measures, they would pose no danger - that's just you making stuff up again. How many times now is this? You wonder why I tire of this bullshit?

You can keep twisting this all you like, but if you want to be believable, you need to bring the evidence to show that they have had any opportunity to cause harm, but of course you won't be able to.

 

[monkers]

Why is the claim false?

They are effectively being kept in solitary confinement as they are a danger to other prisoners. If they were not, then they would be mixing with the other female prisoners.

If anything this illustrates that they are highly dangerous. It is therefore very arguable that a women's prison is inappropriate. Would they still be considered highly dangerous if they were in a men's prison? I doubt it.

It's a false claim to say that they are a danger to women. Why? Because they have no contact with women. It really is that simple.

Too hard?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Pretty much anybody with severe mental illness.

Like who? Johanna Dennehy is arguably England's most dangerous female prisoners and has a diagnosis of psychopathic antisocial disorder. She has a cell mate, socialises normally, has even been allowed to form romantic relationships. Being male on top of being any kind of criminal, even a violent female one, adds a whole other layer of safeguarding concerns.

It's a false claim to say that they are a danger to women. Why? Because they have no contact with women. It really is that simple.
Too hard?

Transwomen have male patterns of offending. The onus is on you to show that they are magically different from other men and should be treated differently from other men. Otherwise it's just an argument for mixed jails.

The mental gymnastics you are having to do to justify males in women's prisons is incredible. It's really not the winning argument you think it is.

(edited for clarity)

 

[Ian H]

Like who? Johanna Dennehy is arguably England's most dangerous female prisoners and has a diagnosis of psychopathic antisocial disorder. She has a cell mate, socialises normally, has even been allowed to form romantic relationships. Being male on top of being any kind of criminal, even a violent female one, adds a whole other layer of safeguarding concerns.



Lol. A circular argument.
Not dangerous because they are mostly locked up.
Why are they locked up?
Because they are too dangerous.

The mental gymnastics you are having to do to justify males in women's prisons is incredible. It's really not the winning argument you think it is.

They are dangerous.
Measures are put in place to ensure they're not a threat to others.
The danger to others is removed.
In those simple terms, their gender is irrelevant.

 

[multitool]

Like who? Johanna Dennehy is arguably England's most dangerous female prisoners and has a diagnosis of psychopathic antisocial disorder.

How the fark would you know who the most dangerous prisoner in England is, and how would I be able to give you names of severely mentally ill inmates?

You should stop reading tabloid clips on anti-trans sites.

 

[monkers]

Like who? Johanna Dennehy is arguably England's most dangerous female prisoners and has a diagnosis of psychopathic antisocial disorder. She has a cell mate, socialises normally, has even been allowed to form romantic relationships. Being male on top of being any kind of criminal, even a violent female one, adds a whole other layer of safeguarding concerns.



Transwomen have male patterns of offending. The onus is on you to show that they are magically different from other men and should be treated differently from other men. Otherwise it's just an argument for mixed jails.

The mental gymnastics you are having to do to justify males in women's prisons is incredible. It's really not the winning argument you think it is.

(edited for clarity)

You can't stop yourself from lying can you? It's just compulsive behaviour.

Nowhere have I sought to justify 'males in women's prisons'.

I'm beginning to think you have two brain cells in random orbits in danger of collision.

I'm haven't been trying to justify anything such thing. These are like so many of your statements, just fixations you have.

I'm challenging these lies that women's prisons are full of trans women rapists, abusers, murderers, and that they are harming other prisoners - bring the evidence.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You can't stop yourself from lying can you? It's just compulsive behaviour. Falls back on personal abuse, as usual.

Nowhere have I sought to justify 'males in women's prisons'. You've spent 2 pages trying to convince us that having males who need 2 guards with them every time they leave a cell is a perfectly normal and acceptable routine in a women's jail. It's not.

I'm beginning to think you have two brain cells in random orbits in danger of collision. Oh dear. Back to the personal abuse.

I'm haven't been trying to justify anything such thing. These are like so many of your statements, just fixations you have.

I'm challenging these lies that women's prisons are full of trans women rapists, abusers, murderers, and that they are harming other prisoners - bring the evidence. I have never said that women's jails are full of transwomen rapists. I've repeatedly said that there is nothing magical about saying you are female that justifies placing a male born person in the female estate. I've said that there are men who are not trans who will try to game the system. It's for you to show the evidence that justifies giving transwomen privileges that we don't give other men.

 

[AuroraSaab]

How the fark would you know who the most dangerous prisoner in England is, and how would I be able to give you names of severely mentally ill inmates?

You should stop reading tabloid clips on anti-trans sites.

It's you saying violent women are treated the same - escorted round the jail by 2 officers - without providing the evidence. They aren't. The special measures are because they are male.

They are dangerous.
Measures are put in place to ensure they're not a threat to others.
The danger to others is removed.
In those simple terms, their gender is irrelevant.

Their sex is relevant because female prisoners in for the same offences, or worse, do not need these special measures. The special measures are because they are male.