Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

When a woman has to use your unproblematic mixed sex with urinals toilets how does she know if the communal area is empty or not?
I don't routinely go to the loo with a friend.

Are you sure you're a woman?

I don't think it includes dick pics. Indecent exposure is 15% of the stats. 1 in 4 women is quite a lot though surely. Well I think it's quite a lot, I guess you don't.

I think dick pics count as indecent exposure. I do think it's a lot, but I also question the data and the way that the question was framed.

We all know why women and girls need single sex spaces, including toilets: safety, privacy, dignity. It's tedious that people on here pretend they don't get it.

No one is doing that. What quite a few are suggesting is that a prudish police state where women are policed for their own safety at all times is also not an ideal solution, and that perhaps social engineering and a bit of give and take might be neccessary to keep everyone safe. It's just possible that most transwomen are not the homicidal perverts that you portray.

 

[The Crofted Crest]

Are you sure you're a woman?

FFf'ngFS!

 

[AuroraSaab]

Are you sure you're a woman?

Well if I identify as one it's the same re access to women's spaces as far as you are concerned.

What quite a few are suggesting is that a prudish police state where women are policed for their own safety at all times is also not an ideal solution, and that perhaps social engineering and a bit of give and take might be neccessary to keep everyone safe. It's just possible that most transwomen are not the homicidal perverts that you portray.

Having women's single sex spaces is neither prudish nor is it policing women for their own safety. In fact they allow women safety, privacy and dignity in vulnerable situations - this allows them to participate fully in society in a way that they otherwise couldn't.

What single sex spaces actually do is police male behaviour by reducing opportunities for offending.

Trans identifying men are men. There is no discernible difference between them and other men. You need to explain why the basic rules of safeguarding that we apply to other men shouldn't apply to them also.


Women generally don't make a fuss. They just self exclude. When they do make a fuss they are punished.

Perhaps you could put your efforts into getting all your fellow brethren to be less of a risk to women and also welcome the non conforming ones into the Gents with you. If there is an incident you've assured me that the other men will jump in to offer protection so they'll be fine in there.

 

[icowden]

Well if I identify as one it's the same re access to women's spaces as far as you are concerned.

May be I should have added "<joke>" tags.

Having women's single sex spaces is neither prudish nor is it policing women for their own safety. In fact they allow women safety, privacy and dignity in vulnerable situations - this allows them to participate fully in society in a way that they otherwise couldn't.

Nope and no-one has suggested otherwise.

What single sex spaces actually do is police male behaviour by reducing opportunities for offending.

Fair point.

Trans identifying men are men. There is no discernible difference between them and other men. You need to explain why the basic rules of safeguarding that we apply to other men shouldn't apply to them also.

Well, this is the tricky bit isn't it. Transwomen who have been through transition or are going through transition are in a difficult position, the same as women with DSDs. So the basic rules of safeguarding don't include a full genital check and DNA analysis. What they do is to look at a person and decided the best way to keep them safe along with everyone else. Therefore for some women's spaces it might be reasonable for DSD women and transwomen to be included. This doesn't mean that any fetishist who likes to wear a dress should be admitted to any women's space, and women should have the same protection as anyone else to throw out people who are inappropriate, make people uncomfortable, commit offences etc.

View attachment 15516

Well if it's in the Telegraph it must be a completely honest and well balanced piece of journalism furthering women's rights.

I did some checking for you (as you don't appear to have done any).

Miranda was not banned from her gym for objecting to a transwoman using the female changing room. She was politely informed of company policy and was invited to use either the mixed changing room or the disabled facilities. Miranda continued to make a fuss and was aggressive towards staff and other members, and was therefore banned. Other women were in the women's changing room when Miranda confronted the transwoman, but oddly they did not complain or support Miranda in any way.

Miranda also indulged in the whataboutery that you enjoy. "What if the transwoman was naked in there?" "Were they?" "No". "But WHAT IF - after all it is a changing room. There could be young girls there". I'm willing to make a small bet here that the changing room has cubicles to use for changing, which most women use, and I suspect that the transwoman would have been equally anxious about changing in front of people.

Miranda points out that one women was only wearing a towel. Yet that woman didn't complain.

This strongly suggests that Miranda is the problem. If a platoon of women had stormed reception en masse I am sure that the outcome would have been different. They didn't, it wasn't.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I don't think a woman expecting the women's changing rooms to have only women in them is problematic.

Nope and no-one has suggested otherwise.

You literally said 'a prudish police state where women are policed for their own safety' in reference to single sex toilets. Having single sex spaces isn't prudish.

....this is the tricky bit isn't it. Transwomen who have been through transition or are going through transition are in a difficult position, the same as women with DSDs.

That is not women's problem to solve. Why aren't you accommodating these men? Why is it women's responsibility to budge up and make room? Women with dsds can use women's facilities.

So the basic rules of safeguarding don't include a full genital check and DNA analysis. What they do is to look at a person and decided the best way to keep them safe along with everyone else. Therefore for some women's spaces it might be reasonable for DSD women and transwomen to be included. This doesn't mean that any fetishist who likes to wear a dress should be admitted to any women's space, and women should have the same protection as anyone else to throw out people who are inappropriate, make people uncomfortable, commit offences etc.

Why? Women spaces aren't rewards for men who have made an effort. Women aren't human shields for men that other men don't like. Why aren't you making room for them in your spaces? Why can't they be 'kept safe' in men's facilities?

You think some men should be allowed in women's spaces because it's too hard to tell their sex without a dna test, but think women can tell which of the dress wearing men are fetishists. It's an illogical position.

The whole point of safeguarding by sex, by age etc. is to prevent incidents so you don't have to deal with them afterwards.

In all this, the only people you are asking to give up anything is women. You are not asking anything of yourself or of men in general.

 

[icowden]

You literally said 'a prudish police state where women are policed for their own safety' in reference to single sex toilets. Having single sex spaces isn't prudish.

That depends on the perspective of the person making the judgement call.

That is not women's problem to solve. Why aren't you accommodating these men? Why is it women's responsibility to budge up and make room? Women with dsds can use women's facilities.

Why is a person with a DSD who has male DNA but female genitals a woman, but a person with male DNA but constructed female genitals still a man? At what point to you define woman?

Why? Women spaces aren't rewards for men who have made an effort. Women aren't human shields for men that other men don't like. Why aren't you making room for them in your spaces? Why can't they be 'kept safe' in men's facilities?

I suspect that there is data showing that transwomen are far more at risk of assault by men, than by women.

You think some men should be allowed in women's spaces because it's too hard to tell their sex without a dna test, but think women can tell which of the dress wearing men are fetishists. It's an illogical position.

Nope. What's illogical is your proposed DNA and genital screening system.

The whole point of safeguarding by sex, by age etc. is to prevent incidents so you don't have to deal with them afterwards.

Exactly but you don't seem to understand that safeguarding is for everyone not just women.

In all this, the only people you are asking to give up anything is women. You are not asking anything of yourself or of men in general.

Nope. I think men would be just as welcoming of transmen.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Why is a person with a DSD who has male DNA but female genitals a woman, but a person with male DNA but constructed female genitals still a man? At what point to you define woman?

A male with a dsd is a male. It doesn't matter what their genitals look like.

A male with his genitals removed is a male. It doesn't matter that they have an artificial hole made from inverted penile tissue.

'Woman' isn't defined by surgery.

I suspect that there is data showing that transwomen are far more at risk of assault by men, than by women.

I'm sure they are. But women aren't human shields for men that other men don't like so I suggest you address male violence instead of treating women's spaces as refuges for such men. Lots of men are vulnerable to male violence - gay men, disabled men - should they use women's spaces for their own safety too?

Funny how men are dangerous to other males in men's facilities but magically men become harmless once they're allowed in the Ladies.

Nope. What's illogical is your proposed DNA and genital screening system.

No screening required. Use the facilities appropriate for your sex or campaign for additional third mixed sex spaces. It's you who seem to want a genital check - for artificial ones no less - to be the access requirement.

Exactly but you don't seem to understand that safeguarding is for everyone not just women.

But only women are being asked by you to make a compromise. Why aren't you working on making male spaces safer? Or asking for additional mixed sex spaces?

Nope. I think men would be just as welcoming of transmen.

I meant transwomen. Why aren't you welcoming them into your facilities?
Transmen are no threat to men at all so no wonder most men don't mind them in their spaces.

Your position is illogical. We managed to have single sex spaces pretty successfully for a century but now there's no alternative other than genital checks or letting any man in? It's nonsense.

 

[icowden]

A male with a dsd is a male. It doesn't matter what their genitals look like.

OK - so how are you going to implement genetic testing on every changing room?

A male with his genitals removed is a male. It doesn't matter that they have an artificial hole made from inverted penile tissue.

Fair enough. Makes it quite tricky to rape people though.

'Woman' isn't defined by surgery.

OK.

I'm sure they are. But women aren't human shields for men that other men don't like so I suggest you address male violence instead of treating women's spaces as refuges for such men. Lots of men are vulnerable to male violence - gay men, disabled men - should they use women's spaces for their own safety too?

Why not? Seems sensible.

Funny how men are dangerous to other males in men's facilities but magically men become harmless once they're allowed in the Ladies.

Some ladies can be quite scary. Men are often better behaved in front of them believe it or not. I think it's some sort of group dynamic.

No screening required. Use the facilities appropriate for your sex or campaign for additional third mixed sex spaces. It's you who seem to want a genital check - for artificial ones no less - to be the access requirement.

Ok, so a person with a DSD that believes that they are female and presents as female can use female facilities, but a person with gender dysphoria that believes that they are female and presents as female is not allowed to use female facilities. Got it. Makes perfect sense. Honestly.

But only women are being asked by you to make a compromise. Why aren't you working on making male spaces safer? Or asking for additional mixed sex spaces?

So far, no men have complained about having transmen present in their changing room.

I meant transwomen. Why aren't you welcoming them into your facilities?

I'm sure they are quite welcome. They may not feel comfortable and may worry about being challenged as to why a woman is in the men's changing room.

Transmen are no threat to men at all so no wonder most men don't mind them in their spaces.

Ah ok, this is because all men are 6 foot towering mountains of muscle, secure in their throbbing masculinity. Got it.

Your position is illogical. We managed to have single sex spaces pretty successfully for a century but now there's no alternative other than genital checks or letting any man in? It's nonsense.

Gosh. You are right. It worked for 100 years so lets not bother with the other several thousand years.

I agree with your very last point however.

 

[AuroraSaab]

OK - so how are you going to implement genetic testing on every changing room?

Why would you need to? Use the one appropriate to your sex or the mixed sex facilities.

Fair enough. Makes it quite tricky to rape people though.

You are setting the bar at what women must tolerate at 'rape with a penis' then. Presumably men who've lost their bits from cancer or accident can go in women's spaces too if that's the criteria. This is a ridiculous line of reasoning.

Ok, so a person with a DSD that believes that they are female and presents as female can use female facilities...

No, they can't, because almost all of them will be obviously male or female. People with dsds are 0.02% of births. So around 0.01% of the population are likely to be males with a dsd of whom a tiny % of which will have a dsd that might be overlooked at birth and which leads them to believe themselves to be female. Most won't present as female because even if missed at birth they invariably go through male puberty. People with dsds really aren't a problem.

..but a person with gender dysphoria that believes that they are female and presents as female is not allowed to use female facilities. Got it.

Correct. We don't base access to services that are separated by age, sex etc on what you believe about yourself, otherwise there'd be 50 year olds thrashing about in the under 5's ball pit and 12 year olds going to night clubs wouldn't there?

Why does the discomfort of transwomen at having to use male facilities override the discomfort or fear of women at having a man in their spaces? They have to have access to women's spaces or they'll be sad? Why is this women's problem to solve?

There isn't a single argument you are making here that isn't illogical or sexist. It's the tiresome trope of 'woman is a costume' and if a man's performance of femininity is good enough then he deserves access to women's spaces.

 

[icowden]

Why would you need to? Use the one appropriate to your sex or the mixed sex facilities.

A Woman with an undiagnosed DSD would use the women's facilities. You've just said that they can't because they are genetically male.

You are setting the bar at what women must tolerate at 'rape with a penis' then. Presumably men who've lost their bits from cancer or accident can go in women's spaces too if that's the criteria. This is a ridiculous line of reasoning.

And yours is completely sane and sensible of course, with the DNA scanner and security scanner to check genitals.

No, they can't, because almost all of them will be obviously male or female. People with dsds are 0.02% of births. So around 0.01% of the population are likely to be males with a dsd of whom a tiny % of which will have a dsd that might be overlooked at birth and which leads them to believe themselves to be female. Most won't present as female because even if missed at birth they invariably go through male puberty. People with dsds really aren't a problem.

Oh, I thought they were a little while ago. So Caster Semenya is welcome in the ladies even though she is genetically male and presents as obviously female...

Correct. We don't base access to services that are separated by age, sex etc on what you believe about yourself, otherwise there'd be 50 year olds thrashing about in the under 5's ball pit and 12 year olds going to night clubs wouldn't there?

But we also don't tend to age check whether the kids in the under 5s ball pit are actually under 5. We don't throw out a kid because they look too old to be in there unless they are very obviously too old. We don't ask for a birth certificate. For licensed venues we do ask for ID that shows that you are the right age to be there. Presumably you now want licensed toilets and a bouncer on each door to check ID?

Why does the discomfort of transwomen at having to use male facilities override the discomfort or fear of women at having a man in their spaces? They have to have access to women's spaces or they'll be sad? Why is this women's problem to solve?

No one has made any of these arguments. They exist in your head. You've already said that people should use the appropriate facilities based on how they look. That's what they are doing.

There isn't a single argument you are making here that isn't illogical or sexist. It's the tiresome trope of 'woman is a costume' and if a man's performance of femininity is good enough then he deserves access to women's spaces.

I can't help you with your ability to read and interpret information. None of what you have posted here is an accurate summary of what I have been posting.

 

[TailWindHome]

We managed to have single sex spaces pretty successfully for a century but now there's no alternative other than genital checks or letting any man in? It's nonsense.

For that sucessful century were transwoman using (womens) toilets?

 

[AuroraSaab]

A Woman with an undiagnosed DSD would use the women's facilities. You've just said that they can't because they are genetically male.

Please enlighten me as to which dsd a woman can suffer from that would make her genetically male. The only one I can think of would be a rare variant of the cais category dsd in which a genetic male doesn't go through male puberty.

And yours is completely sane and sensible of course, with the DNA scanner and security scanner to check genitals. Oh, I thought they were a little while ago. So Caster Semenya is welcome in the ladies even though she is genetically male and presents as obviously female...
View attachment 15525

No. C Semenya is a male with the 5ard dsd.
This is well documented. How someone looks is not necessarily an indicator of sex but in what way does Semenya present as 'obviously female'? Are you equating 'woman' with 'has long hair' by any chance.

But we also don't tend to age check whether the kids in the under 5s ball pit are actually under 5. We don't throw out a kid because they look too old to be in there unless they are very obviously too old. We don't ask for a birth certificate. For licensed venues we do ask for ID that shows that you are the right age to be there. Presumably you now want licensed toilets and a bouncer on each door to check ID?

No, I want men to respect women's spaces.
You seem to be suggesting access to women's spaces is based on what a man looks like.

You've already said that people should use the appropriate facilities based on how they look. That's what they are doing.

No, I haven't.

You've made several lengthy posts which can be summarised as:

It's impossible to tell what sex someone is so let's base access to women's spaces on how girly a man can look.

How is that going to be policed?

 

[AuroraSaab]

For that sucessful century were transwoman using (womens) toilets?

Yes but likely in much much smaller numbers.
I think in years gone by women tolerated it because there was an assumption that such men were either gay and/or had had surgery.
Nobody thought it was enough that any man could simply say 'I'm a woman' and be in any single sex female space.

They certainly weren't pushing to be in every women's space including prisons, domestic violence refuges, rape counselling centres, or sports. They weren't seeking to be on all women shortlists or take places that had been allocated to females. They didn't demand to be called women.

Apart from which, saying men have always ignored women's boundaries isn't really a reason to let it continue at a higher rate.

 

[TailWindHome]

Yes but likely in much much smaller numbers.
I think in years gone by women tolerated it because there was an assumption that such men were either gay and/or had had surgery.
Nobody thought it was enough that any man could simply say 'I'm a woman' and be in any single sex female space.

There's a lot of truths in this.

 

[icowden]

No. C Semenya is a male with the 5ard dsd.
This is well documented. How someone looks is not necessarily an indicator of sex but in what way does Semenya present as 'obviously female'? Are you equating 'woman' with 'has long hair' by any chance.

Sorry - I forgot the "joke" tag again. I forgot that you cannot see humour. The point is that Caster Semenya presents as fame and believes herself to be female whilst being genetically male, which is true of many "women" with DSDs. It is very possible to be born with a body that appears to have a vagina but not to have the internal organs of a woman. She did not know she had a DSD. She would have used the womans toilets.

Semenya said that she was born with a vagina and internal undescended testes but that she has no uterus or fallopian tubes and does not menstruate

I don't believe that she knew she was genetically male with DSD until the IOC started investigating her running times. Up until that point she thought she was female. She was raised as female.

No, I want men to respect women's spaces.
You seem to be suggesting access to women's spaces is based on what a man looks like.

No, I'm suggesting that it is based on what a woman looks like. It always has been.

It's impossible to tell what sex someone is so let's base access to women's spaces on how girly a man can look.
How is that going to be policed?

It's you that wants the police force and DNA scanner not me. Access to spaces will, as it has always been, initially be predicated on the way that someone looks and the fact that they want to access the space, unless it is the sort of place that checks ID.