Gender again. Sorry!

[Electric_Andy]

Most are unisex changing villages now.

I haven't seen them in my local swimming pool. We have changing "villages" for parents and small children. I'd imagine that if I (a hairy 45 yo man) tried to change in there, I would get thrown out. Even if I did identify as a woman. The rest are single lockable cubicles which may still be an issue but if it is then I can't think of a reason why.

 

[icowden]

I haven't seen them in my local swimming pool.

IIRC Guildford Spectrum and Bracknell Water Park have both got changing villages. I think my local was going to have them, but there were many complaints

 

[icowden]

Apropos of nothing, I had the opportunity to take part in an interesting social experiment this evening.

I went to see Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club in London (great show by the way). As part of their theatre design, the toilets are labelled "Cubicles" and "Cubicles + Urinals". Now during the quieter time before the show, I used a Cubicles loo as did a few ladies. No one seemed worried.

At the interval I went to the cubicles + urinals loo and so did some of the more savvy ladies. No-one seemed to be perturbed by seeing men at urinals, and none of the men seemed perturbed by the women walking past the urinals. I don't believe that there have been any reports of sexual assault in the bathrooms at that theatre.

Could it be that the toilet thing is therefore pretty much an imaginary social construct?

 

[AndyRM]

Apropos of nothing, I had the opportunity to take part in an interesting social experiment this evening.

I went to see Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club in London (great show by the way). As part of their theatre design, the toilets are labelled "Cubicles" and "Cubicles + Urinals". Now during the quieter time before the show, I used a Cubicles loo as did a few ladies. No one seemed worried.

At the interval I went to the cubicles + urinals loo and so did some of the more savvy ladies. No-one seemed to be perturbed by seeing men at urinals, and none of the men seemed perturbed by the women walking past the urinals. I don't believe that there have been any reports of sexual assault in the bathrooms at that theatre.

Could it be that the toilet thing is therefore pretty much an imaginary social construct?

Oh no.

Oh my sweet summer child.

You've made a terrible mistake here.

What you've failed to understand with your anecdata is that you missed the bajillions of predatory trans folk lurking and biding their time for a swatch of your genitals.

Or worse, deny you top spot in a hitherto unheard of sporting event that you hadn't even realised was a thing!

Try better, you woman hating fascist.

 

[icowden]

What you've failed to understand with your anecdata is that you missed the bajillions of predatory trans folk lurking and biding their time for a swatch of your genitals.

Indeed, to be fair to the experiment many women preferred to use the cubicles toilets, and men obviously veered to the urinals toilets for speed of access, but the interplay and cross use just seemed to work even though it was a new experience for most, I'd imagine.

 

[AndyRM]

Indeed, to be fair to the experiment many women preferred to use the cubicles toilets, and men obviously veered to the urinals toilets for speed of access, but the interplay and cross use just seemed to work even though it was a new experience for most, I'd imagine.

Strange, isn't it, how that's cool with people living in the actual world?

Again this is anecdata, but here in the wilds of North East England, we manage to have mixed space and gender facilities without issue.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I used a Cubicles loo as did a few ladies. No one seemed worried.

How do you know what people were thinking?
Are you saying you used the cubicles only loo in preference to the urinals plus cubicles one? Knowing that that would be the toilet most women would choose because it would more likely be male free?

At the interval I went to the cubicles + urinals loo and so did some of the more savvy ladies. No-one seemed to be perturbed by seeing men at urinals,

Again, you have no idea what people were thinking. Some people might have been upset, embarrassed, mortified at their mistake.

First though, if women have deliberately chosen to go to the loo with urinals in they've consented to using a mixed sex space so that's their choice.

Second, you have no idea how people, especially women, feel about mixed sex toilets in general based on one experience where you yourself weren't bothered.

'I'm a man who doesn't care so nobody else should' isn't really how women's single sex spaces work.

and none of the men seemed perturbed by the women walking past the urinals. I don't believe that there have been any reports of sexual assault in the bathrooms at that theatre.

Low risk because basically everybody is only using the bathrooms in a set period of 15 minutes at the interval or immediately before or after the show so they'll be very busy.

Let's extrapolate your love for mixed sex toilets with urinals in them to the wider world - quiet shopping centres, bus stations, schools, leisure centres - and see how that pans out. 15% of sex crimes are for indecent exposure so I guess the flashers will thank you for the new opportunity. You'll have saved them hanging round a cold park. Well done you.

Could it be that the toilet thing is therefore pretty much an imaginary social construct?

It's more likely you have zero empathy for women and girls who don't want to see a man with his nob out at the urinal, or find themselves alone in an enclosed toilet area with a male, and you don't really appreciate that you consenting to it doesn't mean you get to consent for women and girls.

Cabaret is an adult show. I'd be surprised if there were kids under 15 there. Would you happily let young girls use a mixed sex toilet with urinals on their own? A quiet one where they might be the only female in there?

If you google that theatre lots of people, including embarrassed males, are not happy about them.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Again this is anecdata, but here in the wilds of North East England, we manage to have mixed space and gender facilities without issue.

You have no idea how people feel about mixed sex spaces. In practically every survey women want single sex spaces so there obviously is an issue - just not for you.

'Without issue' is simply wrong. Mixed sex spaces result in increased sexual assaults, voyerism, indecent exposure etc than in women's single sex spaces.

I guess maybe the north east perverts sometimes only get caught on holiday.

'Not an issue'

 

[icowden]

How do you know what people were thinking?
Are you saying you used the cubicles only loo in preference to the urinals plus cubicles one? Knowing that that would be the toilet most women would choose because it would more likely be male free?

Clearly not. That's one of your flights of fancy. I used it because I needed a quick wee and it was the closest (and the one that the usher directed me to)

Again, you have no idea what people were thinking. Some people might have been upset, embarrassed, mortified at their mistake.

Everyone seemed quite happy and chatty.

First though, if women have deliberately chosen to go to the loo with urinals in they've consented to using a mixed sex space so that's their choice.

Second, you have no idea how people, especially women, feel about mixed sex toilets in general based on one experience where you yourself weren't bothered.

True. Whereas you, of course, have carried out a detailed survey?

Low risk because basically everybody is only using the bathrooms in a set period of 15 minutes at the interval or immediately before or after the show so they'll be very busy.

Entrance sf from an hour before the show. There seemed to be varying periods of busyness.

Let's extrapolate your love for mixed sex toilets with urinals in them to the wider world - quiet shopping centres, bus stations, schools, leisure centres - and see how that pans out. 15% of sex crimes are for indecent exposure so I guess the flashers will thank you for the new opportunity. You'll have saved them hanging round a cold park. Well done you.

Again - don't make shoot up. I didn't say that I love them, I pointed out that they seemed to work.

It's more likely you have zero empathy for women and girls who don't want to see a man with his nob out at the urinal, or find themselves alone in an enclosed toilet area with a male, and you don't really appreciate that you consenting to it doesn't mean you get to consent for women and girls.

Again nope.

Cabaret is an adult show. I'd be surprised if there were kids under 15 there. Would you happily let young girls use a mixed sex toilet with urinals on their own? A quiet one where they might be the only female in there?

The minimum recommended age is 13+. There is no absolute restriction.

If you google that theatre lots of people, including embarrassed males, are not happy about them.

And yet, they seemed to work without problem on the evening that I was there...

 

[AuroraSaab]

This is at the level of 'I've never seen a pit bull hurt anybody'. Your one anecdote, which involves you reading the minds of all the evening's theatregoers, wipes out all we know about criminal offending patterns apparently.

You have no idea how many women used the mixed sex toilets only because they didn't realise they were mixed sex, used them because there was no single sex option, used them only because they were absolutely desperate, used them and were unhappy, or chose not to go to the loo at all because they didn't want to be in that space with males.

Once again you confuse women not shouting and making a fuss for their consent.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/singl...prefer-single-sex-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

It is tiresome when men on here pretend they don't know why women and girls need and want single sex spaces.

If you give all men access to women's single sex spaces some men will use that as an opportunity to offend.

I think it's often appropriate to limit those opportunities. You seem to think we should increase them.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Would you happily let young girls use a mixed sex toilet with urinals on their own? A quiet one where they might be the only female in there?

If no, why not? They 'work' according to you.

The solution is single sex provision with an extra mixed sex toilet for those who are happy to walk past men peeing in urinals.

 

[icowden]

This is at the level of 'I've never seen a pit bull hurt anybody'. Your one anecdote, which involves you reading the minds of all the evening's theatregoers, wipes out all we know about criminal offending patterns apparently.

Nope. It was just an anecdote about an environment where it appeared to work. You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist about the idea that maybe it's not as big a deal as you would like it to be.

You have no idea how many women used the mixed sex toilets only because they didn't realise they were mixed sex, used them because there was no single sex option, used them only because they were absolutely desperate, used them and were unhappy, or chose not to go to the loo at all because they didn't want to be in that space with males.

Nope, and I don't care. The women that were using them seemed perfectly happy, as did the men.

Once again you confuse women not shouting and making a fuss for their consent.

Oh no. I can see you shouting and making a fuss. I just wonder whether it's worth the effort, given that your Toilet Gestapo idea is never going to catch on.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/singl...prefer-single-sex-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

A new poll also shows that most bears prefer sh1tting in woods. Some bears have discovered that it doesn't matter where they sh1t.

It is tiresome when men on here pretend they don't know why women and girls need and want single sex spaces.

No, it's tiresome when you go off on one about something whilst singularly failing to read or understand what was posted because it doesn't match your agenda.

f you give all men access to women's single sex spaces some men will use that as an opportunity to offend.

And you are extrapolating this from people being able to use the toilet together without upset.

I think it's often appropriate to limit those opportunities. You seem to think we should increase them.

At no point have I suggested that. You're making it up again, Arnold.

 

[AndyRM]

You have no idea how people feel about mixed sex spaces. In practically every survey women want single sex spaces so there obviously is an issue - just not for you.

'Without issue' is simply wrong. Mixed sex spaces result in increased sexual assaults, voyerism, indecent exposure etc than in women's single sex spaces.

I guess maybe the north east perverts sometimes only get caught on holiday.

'Not an issue'

View attachment 15484

I'd been talking pretty specifically about the unisex council facilities I use in North Tyneside, where I'm still pretty sure there have been no reports of any issues.

Mark Simpson carried out a number of crimes over several years in and around Skegness.

Which doesn't excuse them in any way.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Nope. It was just an anecdote about an environment where it appeared to work. You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist about the idea that maybe it's not as big a deal as you would like it to be.

There are plenty of anecdotes and crime stats that show it doesn't.

You've extrapolated that mixed sex toilets - ones where women and girls have to walk past men using urinals - 'work' and 'aren't a big deal' from one evening in a busy theatre, where the loos will be packed.

I think you know exactly why women and girls don't want to walk past a man with his privates out to get to a cubicle. I think you know exactly why such mixed sex spaces as a general idea are uncomfortable for women and increase the risk.

Along with your suggestion that rapists go round schools telling boys to be less rape-y, I think you're now just trolling the women who read this forum.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'd been talking pretty specifically about the unisex council facilities I use in North Tyneside, where I'm still pretty sure there have been no reports of any issues.

You have no idea how many people, male and female, self exclude from using the leisure centre because of the mixed sex facilities, or how many incidents go unreported.

We know that mixed sex spaces increase offending simply because they increase opportunities. You're both extrapolating from 'I've never seen anything in this one place' to 'It's never a problem anywhere'.

I've never seen anyone catapulted through a car windscreen so why is everyone making a fuss about seat belts? It's the same logic.

We all know why we have single sex spaces.