Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

I post up something about KJK and her Nazi followers and up you pop, even though you aren't mentioned, and the one thing you aren't doing is condemning the nazis or KJK. What you try and do is attack the criticism of these people with phrases like " oh the nazis were just there to attack antifa", which is bollocks because they had a massive transphobic banner, which even you with your tunnel vision could not miss.

I've said KJK should condemn Nazis who turn up. I've said I don't agree with her overall methodology. What I will defend is women's right to meet together peacefully without being threatened by violence.

I can't see how the other work of the artist of that cartoon I linked to is in anyway relevant. I've never heard of this person. The message was the message of that cartoon and no other. And that message both stands and is undiminished by whatever else that artist says or does.

Because you continually do the guilt by association thing. Then it backfires on you when you find yourself quoting somebody very dodgy. Now you're trying to squirm out of it lol.

As many have said, your views on trans rights are shared by nazis and that ought to give you pause for thought. If I apply your cartoon analogy to this it would mean you also want Jews exterminated, which clearly you don't.

I've thought about it a lot. Having done so I still believe gender ideology is regressive nonsense based on sexist and homophobic stereotypes, that medicalising gender non conforming kids is a terrible idea, and that men shouldn't be in women's sports or prisons.

Funnily enough a cartoon by a porn addled loser with a fetish for toddler animals in nappies hasn't changed my mind.

 

[matticus]

Is it time for a new Multitool avatar?

 

[theclaud]

Maybe, but the only person posting kink porn was Aurora. The point made by the cartoon I posted is apposite regardless of the proclivities of the artist.

Agreed, although I'd already posted a more succinct cartoon making exactly the same point . I've defended Eric Gill's artwork against the Smash Paedo Statues brigade, and would do so again, but on the other hand I don't think many people would advocate using his writings in sex-ed classes. I'm not suggesting there's necessarily anything wrong with the (non-fetish) cartoons, with which this is my first acquaintance, but I do think there's an obvious issue with a person who is into child pornography building a career which involves having a fan base of minors. I'm only harping on about it because it's obviously having a damaging effect on public perception of the issues that otherwise quite sensible people don't seem to be able to take a clear position on things that seem like no-brainers. This is what happens when actual feminist critique gets edged out by the culture war. Kink shaming is actually OK, IMO, if the kink in question is making wank materials out of pictures of children. YMMV.

 

[theclaud]

KJK should condemn Nazis who turn up

That would involve dismissing her security detail.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Sophie Labelle has a kink that she has admitted to. It's something I don't understand, I don't appreciate it as art, and I'm sure that it doesn't pass my 'yuck test'.

The comic strip cartoon stuff on the other hand is published work intended as educational material. Setting aside my distaste for her artwork which is not intended for children as an audience, I think there should be some space to see that there is a distinction to be made between published educational material and private art.

I also think it ironic that the same people who have complained about no-platforming campaign to have others no-platformed.

People are free to buy their books and art if they wish, as long as the content isn't illegal. Others are free to draw attention to their content.

There's also the point that if trans people were better accommodated in UK society as they are in other countries, there'd be no need for any of this.

Any of what?

 

[icowden]

As many have said, your views on trans rights are shared by nazis and that ought to give you pause for thought.

I'm not sure many have said that. Also @AuroraSaab's views on women's rights are not shared by Nazis.

Sorry - I forgot, women are not allowed to have their own rights in your world. Er... Just like the Nazis?

 

[icowden]

There's also the point that if trans people were better accommodated in UK society as they are in other countries, there'd be no need for any of this.

Fair point, but do you also think that women should be accommodated? If not, where do you set up the border control?

 

[AuroraSaab]

That would involve dismissing her security detail.

I agree she's ill-advised to accept offers of help from conservative/right-wing groups. Not sure they are actually Nazis like the brigade who turned up but CPAC are certainly ultra conservative.

 

[theclaud]

Sophie Labelle has a kink that she has admitted to. It's something I don't understand, I don't appreciate it as art, and I'm sure that it doesn't pass my 'yuck test'.

The comic strip cartoon stuff on the other hand is published work intended as educational material. Setting aside my distaste for her artwork which is not intended for children as an audience, I think there should be some space to see that there is a distinction to be made between published educational material and private art.

I also think it ironic that the same people who have complained about no-platforming campaign to have others no-platformed.

There's also the point that if trans people were better accommodated in UK society as they are in other countries, there'd be no need for any of this.

If people are correct about the method and nature of her fetish drawings - and it only took me a few clicks to find trans people who agreed that they were extremely iffy and were angry that she's fuelling perceptions of trans educators as unsafe people to have around children and only 'admitted' to the kink having been caught out - then I would imagine there are plenty of jurisdictions in which her 'private art' constitutes actual offences against children and is therefore a legitimate matter of public interest. I'm not condoning the death threats etc. that she's apparently received, but I am saying that if you had booked her to speak at a library and found you had triggered a Daily Mail frenzy which will fuel the harassment of legit LGBTQ educators, you should probably back down and apologize for not having Googled her first.

 

[theclaud]

I agree she's ill-advised to accept offers of help from conservative/right-wing groups. Not sure they are actually Nazis like the brigade who turned up but CPAC are certainly ultra conservative.

Ill advised? Ultra conservatives are literally her people, and they are quite content with actual Nazis doing their dirty work. Have you been paying any attention to what's going on across the pond? Any danger of being less mealy-mouthed?

 

[monkers]

People are free to buy their books and art if they wish, as long as the content isn't illegal. Others are free to draw attention to their content.



Any of what?

This culture war against a minority group.

 

[monkers]

If people are correct about the method and nature of her fetish drawings - and it only took me a few clicks to find trans people who agreed that they were extremely iffy and were angry that she's fuelling perceptions of trans educators as unsafe people to have around children and only 'admitted' to the kink having been caught out - then I would imagine there are plenty of jurisdictions in which her 'private art' constitutes actual offences against children and is therefore a legitimate matter of public interest. I'm not condoning the death threats etc. that she's apparently received, but I am saying that if you had booked her to speak at a library and found you had triggered a Daily Mail frenzy which will fuel the harassment of legit LGBTQ educators, you should probably back down and apologize for not having Googled her first.

I'm not well-placed to have any opinion on kink as I just don't 'get it'. I've had friends try to explain to me about BDSM. They sound enthusiastic, telling me it's not about sex but about endorphins and stuff. I used to know one chap who owned some very expensive kit so that he could dress as a horse and his gf used to ride him around the garden like it. She used to dress like a jockey and use a riding crop. To me it's bizarre, but I try not to judge.

Likewise that kink of Labelle's. After being told by others that their kink but not about sexual arousal but something that satisfies the mind in other ways, I've tended to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm not sure that categorizing as fiddle fodder is accurate or not.

The personification of animals and inanimate things is a common feature in art. I didn't see the pic as a baby but as personification of a cat - people see art through different lenses I guess.

If after trying and failing to understand something, I see that as a barrier to having an opinion on it. Just as if I didn't have a sense of gender identity I wouldn't tell other people they can't have one either.

I feel neither appreciative or outraged by Labelle's artwork. I just think it yucky.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Ill advised? Ultra conservatives are literally her people, and they are quite content with actual Nazis doing their dirty work. Have you been paying any attention to what's going on across the pond? Any danger of being less mealy-mouthed?

I think KJK plays into the hands of people who seek to undermine gender critical opinions.

I'm surprised that you don't acknowledge that using one person's stance as a way to disparage many women's opinions is just another way of shutting down the issues though. Do you think American Nazis would stop demonstrating at kid's drag shows if KJK changed her security guards in Australia?

I know you hate my comparing it to how Corbyn is treated but he's also accused of being mealy mouthed in his reluctance to condemn Putin and Hamas and it's used as a way to undermine all his policies and the left in general.

 

[theclaud]

I know you hate my comparing it to how Corbyn is treated but he's also accused of being mealy mouthed in his reluctance to condemn Putin and Hamas and it's used as a way to undermine all his policies and the left in general.

LOL Corbyn was just about the only MP condemning Putin, while he was over here being glad-handed by Blairites and Tories. Hamas are the elected government of an occupied territory. They may be Islamists who you cannot imagine voting for, but I suggest you put yourself in the shoes of someone living under Israeli occupation.

 

[theclaud]

I think KJK plays into the hands of people who seek to undermine gender critical opinions.

I'm surprised that you don't acknowledge that using one person's stance as a way to disparage many women's opinions is just another way of shutting down the issues though. Do you think American Nazis would stop demonstrating at kid's drag shows if KJK changed her security guards in Australia?

I know you hate my comparing it to how Corbyn is treated but he's also accused of being mealy mouthed in his reluctance to condemn Putin and Hamas and it's used as a way to undermine all his policies and the left in general.

It's not just Nazis demonstrating about what you call "kids' drag shows", is it? It's now mainstream and becoming increasingly socially acceptable to be openly hostile to drag queens and other LGBTQ people interacting with children, whether or not they are doing anything age-inappropriate, which they mostly aren't.. Hetero entertainment for kids doesn't seem to be subject to the same moral panic, even when it's obviously sexualised. Can you explain why that is?