Gender again. Sorry!

[theclaud]

I used to know one chap who owned some very expensive kit so that he could dress as a horse and his gf used to ride him around the garden like it. She used to dress like a jockey and use a riding crop. To me it's bizarre, but I try not to judge.

I just find this kind of thing ridiculous, TBH, but not harmful between consenting adults who are both/all into it. However as adults with critical faculties, we can have opinions not just about the idea of 'kink' as a collectivity of off-mainstream sexual practices, but about particular kinks and what's going on with them. The general principle, other than the one about consent and direct harm, is to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. Neville Southall seems like a nice man, but IIRC it didn't go well for him when he decided that platforming minorities extended to handing his Twitter login to the Adult Baby brigade.

 

[monkers]

I just find this kind of thing ridiculous, TBH, but not harmful between consenting adults who are both/all into it. However as adults with critical faculties, we can have opinions not just about the idea of 'kink' as a collectivity of off-mainstream sexual practices, but about particular kinks and what's going on with them. The general principle, other than the one about consent and direct harm, is to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. Neville Southall seems like a nice man, but IIRC it didn't go well for him when he decided that platforming minorities extended to handing his Twitter login to the Adult Baby brigade.

I've never heard of Neville Southall tbh. Though handing our your Twitter login to anyone sounds erm ... bold.

What people do in private alone or between consenting adults is their affair as far as I'm concerned. Yes, most of it is ridiculous, but it provides some source of amusement to folk like me I guess.

My line is drawn where children are subject to actual harm. We have no ability to tell what others are thinking, so worrying about that seems nonsensical to me. From the little I know, I'm in the mind that Labelle has not harmed anyone, if it proves to be the case that she does then she must be dealt with.

There seems to be some kind of comparison being drawn between this and the neo-Nazis. I have to say I'm much more concerned by the displays of rising fascism and the neo-Nazis than I am by old artwork produced by Labelle.

Then again I'm much more concerned about a government that has condemned 4.3 million children in this country to live in conditions of poverty than in anything in this discussion, whether we are talking about drag queen storytime or the Tavistock centre.

The culture war is manufactured by an ultra-right wing government as a distraction from the real issues, while they continue to advance the wealth gap. Apparently the wealthy have an absolute right to have a super-yacht in Cowes harbour than hungry children who have a right to eat.

I said a day or two ago that allowing myself to get dragged back into this discussion is something I regret - it's a waste of emotional energy because no amount of words or argument will change the mind of an absolutist with a mind bent of shape by hatred for others.

 

[multitool]

I've thought about it a lot. Having done so I still believe gender ideology is regressive nonsense based on sexist and homophobic stereotypes

You wait till you hear about gay people. You'll be horrified.

 

[monkers]

I've thought about it a lot. Having done so I still believe gender ideology is regressive nonsense based on sexist and homophobic stereotypes, that medicalising gender non conforming kids is a terrible idea, and that men shouldn't be in women's sports or prisons.

You never see for yourself the problem with what you write; whereas I and some others do.

Here for example, you 'believe' gender ideology ... that's your own belief system system you are expressing then, about something you say have never felt or experienced - therefore you are expressing your own belief in an ideology.

You don't accept that people have a gender identity because it is something you can not understand. This is clear because you go on to call it 'nonsense' and you go further by calling it 'regressive nonsense'. Regressive means going backwards, whereas the fears you express are about what may happen in the future, for example the introduction of self-ID, therefore what you fear is something which is progressive.

Sexism is the denigration of a person due to their sex. Trans women are not denigrating women for their sex. Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? What you are doing is denigrating trans women for their sex, not the other way round. So yes sexism is in the debate, but the ownership is your's. Homophobia? Well I think you are overreaching there too.

Almost everything you write is based on your own fears, and to those ends you portray trans women as perpetrators of misdeeds of all kinds, rape, violence, sorting cheats, paedophiles. Those no end to the alarmism.

After the willy-waving of Dominic Raab saying that he will introduce a policy where no trans woman with a penis will be in a female prison, the prisons minister asserts that is already the case. Six women with GRC in the entire female prison estate, none with a penis, all fully risk assessed, and no reports of difficulties.

Other countries are passing self-ID. The 'legitimate concerns' that you raise are not issues in those countries.

What you spout is endless pages of prejudice, false accusation, and wrongful stereotypes, all worded to conceal your own grudges and prejudices, all designed to induce fear in others. Whether or not the intention, we are increasingly seeing trans women young and old being the targets of hate crime. Trans people are generally more vulnerable and are soft targets, not that is of any interest to you as you say, you are not prepared to be kind to trans people. That's kind of an admission of being prepared to be less than kind. I wonder just how far the GC brigade are prepared to go. The fact that neo-Nazis are supporting your cause ought be a cause for concern. Instead you tend to brush this aside and focus on the paraphylic style artwork of one trans woman. That is kind of demonstrative of a mindset I will say.

 

[icowden]

You don't accept that people have a gender identity because it is something you can not understand. This is clear because you go on to call it 'nonsense' and you go further by calling it 'regressive nonsense'. Regressive means going backwards, whereas the fears you express are about what may happen in the future, for example the introduction of self-ID, therefore what you fear is something which is progressive.

Fair enough. Where is the evidence that gender identity exists?

Almost everything you write is based on your own fears, and to those ends you portray trans women as perpetrators of misdeeds of all kinds, rape, violence, sorting cheats, paedophiles. Those no end to the alarmism.

That isn't true. No-one has suggested that. What we have suggested is that some people may portray themselves as transwomen in order to perpetrate misdeeds of all kinds - such as that bloke in Scotland who wanted to go to a womens prison.

Other countries are passing self-ID. The 'legitimate concerns' that you raise are not issues in those countries.

To be fair, Denmark passed legislation without carrying out any studies into the impact on women and girls, and there are concerns over there too.

 

[monkers]

Fair enough. Where is the evidence that gender identity exists?


That isn't true. No-one has suggested that. What we have suggested is that some people may portray themselves as transwomen in order to perpetrate misdeeds of all kinds - such as that bloke in Scotland who wanted to go to a womens prison.


To be fair, Denmark passed legislation without carrying out any studies into the impact on women and girls, and there are concerns over there too.

In the event of your death, and as an organ donor your brain was transplanted into the body of a young woman who had died from a brain injury, would your brain know that your gender identity is now woman, or would it know that you are a man? Would it take one look at the genitals to adjust, or will continue with the self-knowledge that you are a man?

Gender identity is self-knowledge. Some people feel inclined to say they don't have one. I have a strong sense of my gender identity. Maybe your difficulty is thinking that you have one? My difficulty is thinking that I have not, even though I do not dress in an over feminine way, and I'm not attracted to men. None of this makes me believe that I must therefore be a man as in the hetero-normative way of things. I'm a woman, a not overtly feminine woman, one that likes prefers women to men.

Maybe our sense of gender identity is reinforced when it is at odds with some other facet of identity. In my own case, maybe I have a strong sense of it because I am not heteronormative. Anyone who thinks that psychology will provide easy answers will ultimately be disappointed.

If you listen to trans people, they often tend to say about the social difficulties they experienced as children being herded into the 'wrong group'. There is no one narrative that we live by, we are individuals.

Identity is a very complex issue, I think it a mistake to trivialise it or pretend that it doesn't exist.

 

[multitool]

Almost everything you write is based on your own fears, and to those ends you portray trans women as perpetrators of misdeeds of all kinds, rape, violence, sorting cheats, paedophiles. Those no end to the alarmism.

To be fair, Aurora doesn't say that.

She says trans women are men and therefore the potential is there for them to molest, murder and rape.

It's how I live my life too. I live in a bungalow because a fall on the stairs can kill, I don't drive because...well, it's obvious, and in fact I never leave the house because murder is an actual thing and people do it.

Aurora is right, and the fact that almost all rapes and murders are committed by people known to the victim is neither here nor there.

Don't let my kids out either. Paedos.

 

[qigong chimp]

Identity is a very complex issue, I think it a mistake to trivialise it or pretend that it doesn't exist.

Complex, and burdensome.

“What can I do, Muslims? I do not know myself.
I am neither Christian nor Jew, neither Magian nor Muslim,
I am not from east or west, not from land or sea,
not from the shafts of nature nor from the spheres of the firmament,
not of the earth, not of water, not of air, not of fire.
I am not from the highest heaven, not from this world,
not from existence, not from being.
I am not from India, not from China, not from Bulgar, not from Saqsin,
not from the realm of the two Iraqs, not from the land of Khurasan.
I am not from the world, not from beyond,
not from heaven and not from hell.
I am not from Adam, not from Eve, not from paradise and not from Ridwan.
My place is placeless, my trace is traceless,
no body, no soul, I am from the soul of souls.
I have chased out duality, lived the two worlds as one.
One I seek, one I know, one I see, one I call.
He is the first, he is the last, he is the outer, he is the inner.
Beyond He and He is I know no other.
I am drunk from the cup of love, the two worlds have escaped me.
I have no concern but carouse and rapture.
If one day in my life I spend a moment without you
from that hour and that time I would repent my life.
If one day I am given a moment in solitude with you
I will trample the two worlds underfoot and dance forever.
O Sun of Tabriz, I am so tipsy here in this world,
I have no tale to tell but tipsiness and rapture.”​

 

[AuroraSaab]

..... - it's a waste of emotional energy because no amount of words or argument will change the mind of an absolutist with a mind bent of shape by hatred for others.

The usual verbose hyperbole, ending with the ever present emotive dismissal of every concern ever raised.

From the little I know, I'm in the mind that Labelle has not harmed anyone, if it proves to be the case that she does then she must be dealt with.

Labelle makes sexualised drawings of anthropomorphic child-like animals in nappies. It's called the Adult Baby Diaper Lover kink. It's illegal in many countries, just like drawing sexualised pictures of children is. Just like hentai and lollicon books and art are illegal in many places. For good reason.

There seems to be some kind of comparison being drawn between this and the neo-Nazis. I have to say I'm much more concerned by the displays of rising fascism and the neo-Nazis than I am by old artwork produced by Labelle.

They're drawings. Nobody is harmed in its production, but you could say the same for child sex dolls, and if you honestly think all this child porn stuff isn't harmful you need to give your head a shake.

The bottom line is you will defend anything done by a transwoman, whether it's entering the female category in sport, being in a women's prison, or drawing sexualised pictures of kids for adults.

 

[multitool]

Could be worse.

Could be a nazi sympathiser.

 

[multitool]

Bit surprised not to see this posted by Aurora, given she is an avid Daily Mail reader...

 

[monkers]

Labelle makes sexualised drawings of anthropomorphic child-like animals in nappies. It's called the Adult Baby Diaper Lover kink. It's illegal in many countries, just like drawing sexualised pictures of children is. Just like hentai and lollicon books and art are illegal in many places. For good reason.

Personification of animals, adults and children is everywhere including toy shops. Children see these things all the time. If a parent put a nappy on a child's toy to make them laugh, would you condemn it?

As a kink I don't pretend to understand it, just as you don't understand gender identity. I don't proffer big opinions on things I don't understand, though I note that it doesn't stop you.

 

[AuroraSaab]

To be fair, Aurora doesn't say that.

She says trans women are men and therefore the potential is there for them to molest, murder and rape.

It's how I live my life too. I live in a bungalow because a fall on the stairs can kill, I don't drive because...well, it's obvious, and in fact I never leave the house because murder is an actual thing and people do it.

Aurora is right, and the fact that almost all rapes and murders are committed by people known to the victim is neither here nor there.

Don't let my kids out either. Paedos.

And you don't lock your doors at night because most people aren't burglars. And you leave your car open because most people aren't car thieves. And you'd never tell your wife or daughter to ring you for a lift because walking home in the dark is safe for women because most women are raped by men they know.

Transwomen are men. They offend at the same rate, if not worse, than other men. But magically they are transformed in your eyes and that's enough to give them access to women's single sex spaces and facilities.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Personification of animals, adults and children is everywhere including toy shops. Children see these things all the time. If a parent put a nappy on a child's toy to make them laugh, would you condemn it?

As a kink I don't pretend to understand it, just as you don't understand gender identity. I don't proffer big opinions on things I don't understand, though I note that it doesn't stop you.

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If I see Top Cat drawn as a toddler, wearing a nappy and in a sexualised position, it would ring a few alarm bells. The fact that you know it's a kink, you even call it a kink, but you still defend it is really quite remarkable. You can't bring yourself to condemn any of this stuff because it's done by a transwoman. Free pass, all day long.

 

[monkers]

If I see Top Cat drawn as a toddler, wearing a nappy and in a sexualised position, it would ring a few alarm bells. The fact that you know it's a kink, you even call it a kink, but you still defend it is really quite remarkable. You can't bring yourself to condemn any of this stuff because it's done by a transwoman. Free pass, all day long.

Oh get real, you are going beyond ridiculous now. Laying on one's back is a sexualised position? Best you stay away from yoga classes then.

FYI, Labelle calls it 'her kink' in own statement, why would I then call it anything else? I don't know what she gets out of it.

Tesco seemed to have found a top seller here - out of stock.