Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

But what of sexuality? Is that not a sort of identity or is it immutably and biologically pre-determined?

 

[icowden]

In the event of your death, and as an organ donor your brain was transplanted into the body of a young woman who had died from a brain injury, would your brain know that your gender identity is now woman, or would it know that you are a man? Would it take one look at the genitals to adjust, or will continue with the self-knowledge that you are a man?

Notwithstanding that there is a long way to go before successful brain implants, it would be my brain. My gender identity wouldn't be "woman". All my male feelings, knowledge, hormonal reactions and memories would still be present or I wouldn't be me. Thus I'd be in one of those terrible comedy movies admiring my new mammary glands in the mirror...

If you listen to trans people, they often tend to say about the social difficulties they experienced as children being herded into the 'wrong group'. There is no one narrative that we live by, we are individuals.

The same can be said about gay men and lesbian women - that quite often they have been coerced to confirm etc. It doesn't follow that because they are gay or lesbian that they have the wrong bodies and must undergo surgery - and there is some evidence that youngsters are being pushed to think "oh - I'm a man trapped in a woman's body" rather than "I'm a lesbian".

 

[multitool]

there is some evidence that youngsters are being pushed to think "oh - I'm a man trapped in a woman's body" rather than "I'm a lesbian".

Where did you read that? Aurora's hatesite?

 

[Ian H]

Notwithstanding that there is a long way to go before successful brain implants, it would be my brain. My gender identity wouldn't be "woman". All my male feelings, knowledge, hormonal reactions and memories would still be present or I wouldn't be me. Thus I'd be in one of those terrible comedy movies admiring my new mammary glands in the mirror...
.

Hormones are not created by or in the brain.

 

[icowden]

But what of sexuality? Is that not a sort of identity or is it immutably and biologically pre-determined?

It's an interesting topic of discussion. At base level males of the species are driven to procreate. As with many species at a base level we don't care what we are humping, as long as we are humping. Generally most of the species is driven to hump to make babies and therefore humps women. However, I think history will testify that if you remove women from an environment full of men, men will still find something to hump.

All the gay and lesbian men and women I have seen interviewed have been clear that they have always felt attracted to same sex for as long as they can remember. The same is usually true for heterosexual men and women.

I just don't see it as being an "identity".

 

[icowden]

Hormones are not created by or in the brain.

But knowledge of the feelings they create would be.

 

[multitool]

It's an interesting topic of discussion. At base level males of the species are driven to procreate. As with many species at a base level we don't care what we are humping, as long as we are humping. Generally most of the species is driven to hump to make babies and therefore humps women. However, I think history will testify that if you remove women from an environment full of men, men will still find something to hump.

All the gay and lesbian men and women I have seen interviewed have been clear that they have always felt attracted to same sex for as long as they can remember. The same is usually true for heterosexual men and women.

I just don't see it as being an "identity".

That doesn't answer the question at all. It ignores the possibility of environmental factors. You shouldn't get hung up over terminology, identity is just a word that describes something not necessarily biologically pre-determined.

It's your essentialism that grates a little. I think you can only afford to hold this position if you have absolute certainty that no other possibility exists.

 

[Ian H]

But knowledge of the feelings they create would be.

Feelings mutate constantly.

 

[icowden]

Where did you read that? Aurora's hatesite?

Er.. the BBC?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

 

[winjim]

Yes. I'm a man and heterosexual. That isn't a gender identity. What people claim gender identity to be is an innate sense of gender - usually in contrast to that registered at birth. It's in the same category of mumbo jumbo as the idea that sex is "assigned" - which suggests that someone is giving it out.

We have male, female and intersex, heterosexuality, bisexuality and homosexuality. There really isn't any need for definition beyond that. Of course if you want to define additional genders and sexualities, you are free to do so, but I'm not convinced that it actually helps anyone. Some people feel that it may in many ways be reductive to dilute definition.

For example there are many lesbian women who don't feel that it is acceptable for a man to transition to being a woman and then claim to be a lesbian. They feel that it reduces their status, their rights and the equalities they have fought for.

Could it not be the case that trans women who are sexually attracted to women identify as lesbian precisely because we have these narrow categories which we try to fit people into?

 

[multitool]

Er.. the BBC?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

IIRC it was proven to be bollocks. Pretty sure it appears earlier in this thread.

 

[monkers]

Yes. I'm a man and heterosexual. That isn't a gender identity. What people claim gender identity to be is an innate sense of gender - usually in contrast to that registered at birth. It's in the same category of mumbo jumbo as the idea that sex is "assigned" - which suggests that someone is giving it out.

We have male, female and intersex, heterosexuality, bisexuality and homosexuality. There really isn't any need for definition beyond that. Of course if you want to define additional genders and sexualities, you are free to do so, but I'm not convinced that it actually helps anyone. Some people feel that it may in many ways be reductive to dilute definition.

For example there are many lesbian women who don't feel that it is acceptable for a man to transition to being a woman and then claim to be a lesbian. They feel that it reduces their status, their rights and the equalities they have fought for.

Sorry, you have this all confused. Male is your sex, man is your gender identity. Sex is recorded at birth, gender can not be since it is not known. At the time of my birth, sex and gender were taken to be the same - hence my own birth certificate says 'sex -girl'.

Parliament decided in 2003 the vocabulary in the 2004 Act. I don't happen to agree with all of the vocabulary and I wrote about that in some detail at one point.

Gender identity is innate, it is not just trans people who have a legal gender identity but all of us. Where you sexual identity and gender identity are congruent then your birth certificate require no amendment. Where they are incongruent then an application can be made to have that recognised by the state and a replacement birth certificate can be issued along with a gender recognition certificate. The process is lengthy, arduous and expensive.

Not all people have a sense of a gender identity. This perhaps is understandable, but for people who experience incongruence it can be misery.

For you being heterosexual and congruent means that your feelings and drivers are like those of the majority, but one's partner preference is distinct from one's own sexual and gender identity.

I haven't advocated for more genders or sexualities. I just believe in live and let live. It's not for me to determine how people identify or regulate their lives.

Lastly there is one of those token words in your post - ie 'many'. I've noticed AS doing this so often - don't know the number - just say 'many'. It's a word that without some context means nothing at all. How many is many? Is it most? Is it a majority?

 

[monkers]

Notwithstanding that there is a long way to go before successful brain implants, it would be my brain. My gender identity wouldn't be "woman". All my male feelings, knowledge, hormonal reactions and memories would still be present or I wouldn't be me. Thus I'd be in one of those terrible comedy movies admiring my new mammary glands in the mirror...

Great, now you know that you have an innate gender identity and that it is 'man'.

My guess is that if you had boobs, you wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.

 

[monkers]

IIRC it was proven to be bollocks. Pretty sure it appears earlier in this thread.

It wasn't the best of examples either since the coercion was from one cis woman on another cis woman to have a threesome with a trans woman. The coercion did not seem to be coming from the trans woman.

 

[monkers]

Could it not be the case that trans women who are sexually attracted to women identify as lesbian precisely because we have these narrow categories which we try to fit people into?

One thing about this is peer pressure. Because I accept trans women for who they are, I have been pressurised by lesbian women to stop describing myself as a 'lesbian'. This has happened mostly over the internet but occasionally face to face. I now say that I am a gay woman, though I've even had gay men tell me that I can't say that because 'gay' is their word.

It's funny isn't it, I'm being stripped of my identity because of the people claim to be the owners of words. I haven't changed who I am but some say I can't call myself a lesbian, others say I can't call myself gay, others (heterosexual people) say I can't be married to a women, because marriage is their special word.

It's this silliness on stilts and steroids that is removing identity from women, or at least this woman (me) not trans women as is alleged.