Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

Where did you read that? Aurora's hatesite?

That gender non conforming or same sex attracted girls might think they are men because society is not accepting of non feminine girls and lesbians?

British Journal of Psychology perhaps, publishing an article by 2 consultant psychiatrists and 2 University professors.

The vast majority of girls referred to the Tavistock were same sex attracted, nearly 70%.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A

There are lots of female detransitioners who say that being unable to accept that they were gay was significant in their ending up on hormones and having surgery.

 

[AuroraSaab]

IIRC it was proven to be bollocks. Pretty sure it appears earlier in this thread.

It was lesbians speaking about their personal experiences of feeling pressured to accept transwomen in their dating pool. Actual lesbians, so the whole point is that bollocks don't come in to it....

Social media is full of people telling lesbians their same sex attraction is transphobic if they won't date transwomen.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Gender identity is innate, it is not just trans people who have a legal gender identity but all of us.

Not all people have a sense of a gender identity. This perhaps is understandable, but for people who experience incongruence it can be misery.

How can gender identity be innate when people detransition? How can it be innate if not all of us have it? How can gender identity even exist as a real thing when it is based on how closely you align to gender stereotypes?

It's not a good idea to make legislation on the basis of nebulous concepts like gender as opposed to material things like sex.

 

[winjim]

One thing about this is peer pressure. Because I accept trans women for who they are, I have been pressurised by lesbian women to stop describing myself as a 'lesbian'. This has happened mostly over the internet but occasionally face to face. I now say that I am a gay woman, though I've even had gay men tell me that I can't say that because 'gay' is their word.

It's funny isn't it, I'm being stripped of my identity because of the people claim to be the owners of words. I haven't changed who I am but some say I can't call myself a lesbian, others say I can't call myself gay, others (heterosexual people) say I can't be married to a women, because marriage is their special word.

It's this silliness on stilts and steroids that is removing identity from women, or at least this woman (me) not trans women as is alleged.

My feeling, coming from cis male privilege with autistic notions of identity, is that it's generally notions of prejudice and discrimination that causes us to need to hold on to identities and labels. I would think that the more prejudice you face due to your identity, the more protective you are going to be of that identity. That does seem to form the basis of the gender critical women's movement, and I think applies to your examples as well. Maybe not the marriage one but the others.

 

[monkers]

There are lots of female detransitioners who say that being unable to accept that they were gay was significant in their ending up on hormones and having surgery.

Here we go again. You have this tendency to say 'lots' or 'many' when you wish to portray a big number, and 'some' when you wish to portray a small number.

In this case how many is 'lots'. How many successfully transition? How many detransition? Why do they detransition? Could it be that the anti-trans campaign has undermined their acceptability in society that they now live in fear?

 

[monkers]

How can gender identity be innate when people detransition? How can it be innate if not all of us have it? How can gender identity even exist as a real thing when it is based on how closely you align to gender stereotypes?

It's not a good idea to make legislation on the basis of nebulous concepts like gender as opposed to material things like sex.

People detransition for different reasons. I have only met one detransitioner, so that's not an adequate sample.

Second point is too bloody obvious. Why can you not see that because that some people have no sense of gender identity it must be the case that therefore nobody has?

Third point, your argument is weak. In one breath you say that gender identity is nonsense, in another that gender identity doesn't exist, and one breath later that gender identity is based on stereotypes. Schrodinger's gender identity? It exists and doesn't exist according to the whatever random point you are trying to make. How can I take you seriously?

The legislation is not based on gender. It is based on gender identity in the 2004 Act. The protected characteristic is 'gender reassignment' in the Equality Act.

 

[monkers]

My feeling, coming from cis male privilege with autistic notions of identity, is that it's generally notions of prejudice and discrimination that causes us to need to hold on to identities and labels. I would think that the more prejudice you face due to your identity, the more protective you are going to be of that identity. That does seem to form the basis of the gender critical women's movement, and I think applies to your examples as well. Maybe not the marriage one but the others.

That sounds like a smart observation to me. I feel sure you're right.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Here we go again. You have this tendency to say 'lots' or 'many' when you wish to portray a big number, and 'some' when you wish to portray a small number.

There are 30k plus members of the Detransition subReddit. Funnily enough doctors have no idea how many people detransition in the UK because places like the Tavistock don't keep adequate records and patients just drop off the radar.

In this case how many is 'lots'. How many successfully transition? How many detransition? Why do they detransition? Could it be that the anti-trans campaign has undermined their acceptability in society that they now live in fear?

Where female detransitioners are concerned the reasons given seem to be that they came to terms with being female and often gay. When kids are automatically affirmed as trans without their other issues being addressed, simply because they aren't feminine or are gay, then the problem is that society doesn't accept these kids as they are already, not that they are the opposite sex.

 

[AuroraSaab]

My feeling, coming from cis male privilege with autistic notions of identity, is that it's generally notions of prejudice and discrimination that causes us to need to hold on to identities and labels.

How do you feel about the fact that 35% of kids referred to the Tavistock were on the autistic spectrum? Do you think that might have any influence on them thinking they were transgender?

Do you think some children might find it easier to identify as the opposite sex, especially girls, just because they don't conform to stereotypes of their birth sex and just being gay or non-conforming is unacceptable in society?

 

[monkers]

There are 30k plus members of the Detransition subReddit. Funnily enough doctors have no idea how many people detransition in the UK because places like the Tavistock don't keep adequate records and patients just drop off the radar.




Where female detransitioners are concerned the reasons given seem to be that they came to terms with being female and often gay. When kids are automatically affirmed as trans without their other issues being addressed, simply because they aren't feminine or are gay, then the problem is that society doesn't accept these kids as they are already, not that they are the opposite sex.

View attachment 3403

This answer does not pertain to detransition rates. It just dodges the question and introduces something you feel is to your advantage.

We've done this sketch and been round the block enough times. Anyway neither you or I agree with Hannah Barnes.

So again, how many is 'many' detransitioners?

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's an indication that detransition is an issue though surely, though not every one of the 30k will be a detransitioner. Some will be parents or people with an interest.

How can we check the detransition rate in the UK when the Tavistock hasn't checked for 20 years? The Cass report commented on poor record keeping. That's thousands of kids that weren't followed up so they have no idea if, long term, the treatment made them happier or made them worse or whether they detransitioned.

As I've said before, the data on transgender treatment is often poor quality and short term. All the more reason we shouldn't be letting kids rush into stuff at a young age when the consequences might be irreversible.

There are good reasons why European countries are starting to look again at their gender identity clinics and roll back on prescribing puberty blockers to children and under 18's. A big part of that is that past patients in gender clinics were much older - 20'/30's/40 plus - so were more certain of wanting to transition and less likely to detransition. This isn't the case today where young people make up the vast amount of referrals to UK clinics.

 

[monkers]

It's an indication that detransition is an issue though surely, though not every one of the 30k will be a detransitioner. Some will be parents or people with an interest.

How can we check the detransition rate in the UK when the Tavistock hasn't checked for 20 years? The Cass report commented on poor record keeping. That's thousands of kids that weren't followed up so they have no idea if, long term, the treatment made them happier or made them worse or whether they detransitioned.

View attachment 3404
As I've said before, the data on transgender treatment is often poor quality and short term. All the more reason we shouldn't be letting kids rush into stuff at a young age when the consequences might be irreversible.

There are good reasons why European countries are starting to look again at their gender identity clinics and roll back on prescribing puberty blockers to children and under 18's.

OK

1 The Tavistock Centre was not responsible for recording the rates of all or any detransitioners. I would have expected the TC to be able to report on the number from its own patient cohort though, to understand their reasons for doing so, and to reflect this data in its ongoing systems and practices. Still this does not answer the question of how many is many.

2 So here we are again with your Schrodinger approach. You criticise the TC for not knowing the numbers, so instead you base your claim to 'many' based on the number of worldwide members of a subReddit group that includes everyone with an interest like you.

3 You see how sloppy your presentation is? You criticize TC for not knowing its numbers (fair enough) but then make comments about numbers without knowing them, substituting words like 'lots' and 'many' in place of numbers. If TC were sloppy, then so are you.

4 I have never sought to insulate TC from just criticism. I have made this point to you before and I'll make it again - 13 years of government imposed austerity and underfunding are taking its toll on all of the nation's essential services, and services that women tend to have to rely upon have been disproportionately affected. In the cases that you've been so keen to highlight there is shared cause, a catalogue of political failure going back to 2015. The TC didn't really stand a chance. Even with the most effective management and dedicated staff it could never have been successful in maintaining high standards of clinical practice with limited resources. Where the stakes are high, as in settings such as the TC adequacy of resource was fundamental to maintain clinic standards.

5 I'm not at all satisfied by Hannah Barnes review. It is difficult for me to believe that she has a real grip on the issues, but ambition caused her to use a degree of sensationalism to write what she hoped would be a best seller. I don't feel able to trust an author who speaks of '97.5% of children seeking sex changes'. This is Daily Mail levels of sensationalism.

6 Nobody should be at all surprised that children attended that clinic with associated symptoms such as anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, history of self-harm. These are very much the symptoms you would expect from those with a gender identity incongruent with their sexual identity. These children were at high risk, the TC and ultimately the government failed them.

 

[winjim]

How do you feel about the fact that 35% of kids referred to the Tavistock were on the autistic spectrum? Do you think that might have any influence on them thinking they were transgender?

Do you think some children might find it easier to identify as the opposite sex, especially girls, just because they don't conform to stereotypes of their birth sex and just being gay or non-conforming is unacceptable in society?

I have no opinion on the Tavistock, I don't know what it is or what they do. I will say that anecdotally there seems to me to be a significant overlap between autistic and trans identities although that could be bias in the groups I interact with. I certainly feel that my autism contributes to my feelings of self, and identity, and gender, and how I fit in to society and community. I know what it's like to not understand myself, to not be understood, to not fit in to the category I've been assigned to and to question the authenticity of my own life experience. I've spent a lot of time, both knowingly and unknowingly, examining my own identity and trying to come to terms with what it means, how it affects me and those around me.

I've said before that I don't consider myself a 'feminist' or an 'ally' or anything like that because I don't like labels and I don't feel it's up to me to assign them to myself. But I do feel that my feelings toward and 'support', for want of a better word, flawed though it is, flow from and are influenced by my autistic experience and identity.

I wrote a lengthy response to your second point but the forum software is rubbish and logged me out and deleted it before I could post. Suffice to say simplistically I think you and I may be coming from a very similar position and with similar aims, we just seem to be going in different directions.

 

[AuroraSaab]

1 The Tavistock Centre was not responsible for recording the rates of all or any detransitioners. I would have expected the TC to be able to report on the number from its own patient cohort though...

3 You see how sloppy your presentation is? You criticize TC for not knowing its numbers (fair enough) but then make comments about numbers without knowing them, substituting words like 'lots' and 'many' in place of numbers. If TC were sloppy, then so are you.

The data isn't available for anybody to examine because they didn't collect it. Non UK data is low quality and often self selecting. It's funny how much of the argument for gender identity is based on lived experience though. But when it comes to those who detransition, their lived experience is easily dismissed because it's on social media.

It's not me that giving kids treatment that can lead to being a medical patient for life and infertility, so I think it's fair to hold the Tavistock to a rather higher standard and ask why there was no meaningful follow up of the children they treated.

4 I have never sought to insulate TC from just criticism. I have made this point to you before and I'll make it again - 13 years of government imposed austerity and underfunding are taking its toll on all of the nation's essential services,

The issue is the Affirmation model of treatment. They are closing it because the methodology is failing kids not because of cuts. Other countries are winding back their treatment of children with puberty blockers too - it's a recognition that the Affirmation model is wrong for children not a financial decision.

5 I'm not at all satisfied by Hannah Barnes review. It is difficult for me to believe that she has a real grip on the issues, but ambition caused her to use a degree of sensationalism to write what she hoped would be a best seller. I don't feel able to trust an author who speaks of '97.5% of children seeking sex changes'. This is Daily Mail levels of sensationalism.

Real grip on the issues? She's one of the BBC's top journalists and interviewed 20 plus people. It's a meticulously researched book by all accounts. Not sure where your 97.5% figure comes from or what you even mean.

No sensible person can read what clinicians who worked there said and believe the Tavistock was anything but a medical scandal, borne out of basing treatment on ideology not science. It was failed on methodology not lack of funds.

6 Nobody should be at all surprised that children attended that clinic with associated symptoms such as anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, history of self-harm. These are very much the symptoms you would expect from those with a gender identity incongruent with their sexual identity. These children were at high risk, the TC and ultimately the government failed them.

Or maybe their distress over their sex was just another symptom of their anxiety and depression, not the cause of it.

The fact is, if you don't treat children with puberty blockers but explore all the reasons for their unhappiness, they mostly desist and don't grow up to be transgender.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

 

[AuroraSaab]

I have no opinion on the Tavistock, I don't know what it is or what they do. I will say that anecdotally there seems to me to be a significant overlap between autistic and trans identities although that could be bias in the groups I interact with.

It's not bias. The presence of autism in children referred to GIDS is significantly higher than in the general population. You have to wonder why autistic, gender non conforming, and gay kids are so massively overrepresented at gender clinics and ask whether these children are simply suffering from distress about their sex that would be a passing phase if it wasn't medicalised and affirmed.