winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
OK I read the list. It's incredible. I'm not sure I have anything else to add.
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
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OK I read the list. It's incredible. I'm not sure I have anything else to add.
winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
I think there are certainly people whose sexuality depends on whether they're being observed.
winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
Really?
AuroraSaab
Squire
It would only matter if those of a certain sexuality were making demands that clashed with the rights of others. Things like gay marriage cost nothing to everybody else. The gay community asked for nothing other than equality in law, so personally I don't think it matters if it's innate or a choice. My gay friends say sexuality is innate, though my impression is gay men feel that more strongly than lesbians.
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AuroraSaab
Squire
Well a cheek swab and a 20 minute wait will tell us what your sex is. So would your urine. And it doesn't change regardless of your feelings about anything.
The sex of a foetus can even be identified in the mother's blood after about 8 weeks with 70% accuracy.
monkers
Legendary Member
1 I have said endlessly, trans people do not change their reproductive sex, so that is not a stick you can beat me with. A poor effort.
Biological sex is not innate. A better argument might be whether sexual identity is innate or not. I will tend to say it is not since I haven't yet heard a trans woman say that their sexual identity is female. The whole basis of what being trans is, is based on sexual identity being incongruent with gender identity (which is innate).
That I have to still be explaining this to you is of concern, that is at least to me.
2 I have heard trans people say that they gender has evolved. This can be so for at least two reasons or perhaps a medley of the two; our knowledge of ourselves develops over time, mostly in our early years, secondly in our acceptance of our selves. Educationalists have the understanding of how this happens. If this interests you, then should look at the work of Vygotsky and others. Visual and audible learning is one thing and very useful in learning some things, but not probably not so useful or understanding self. That relies upon a combination of existing self-knowledge, and new knowledge including the learning of vocabulary and concepts in order to lead to reason.
A common question is why there are so many young transitioners, another is why there are so many late onset transitioners. These are complex questions, but one likely reason that explains both is just that we live in the information age, another is that we were living in an age of greater acceptance. I say were because I believe we have experienced regression. When you consider these factors with what Vygostsky had to say about the role of language in learning, self-development, and self-control of our behaviours, then there is a worthy argument.
There is a shared identity. You say you are a woman. I say I am a woman. You say you are a woman because you say you have no innate gender identity, therefore you rely on your sexual identity to assert your gender. I am not unencumbered of a gender identity. My self-knowledge is that I have a sexual identity, a gender identity, and an identity pertaining to partner preference (what some people call sexuality if you like).
Your argument relies on your lacking one component of this identity - you seem to be one short. That's too bad, and I empathise, you have a choice of 72 other genders to choose from, just pick one, or create one of your own. I don't care what you call yourself or choose how you identify, that's very much a matter for you. But I do draw the line at you insisting that there's something wrong with my brain because I have something you don't.
You don't get to rewrite my identity, or anybody else's for that matter. You've replaced innate gender identity with innate gender prejudice - now that's the result of ideology.
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winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
That's a pivot from 'every cell in your body', although I was kind of being pedantic for sh*ts and giggles.
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monkers
Legendary Member
There you go making stuff up again. I have pushed for no such things. What I have done is challenge your lies and false allegations - of which there has been plenty, including this assertion here.
You have misrepresented the law, science, philosophy and the truth in pursuit of a prejudice. Where you can't win the argument with reason, you revert to what you think are the easy wins, jumping about all over the thread as you do so. It's like watching a pigeon strutting about on a chess board knocking over the pieces and declaring itself the winner.
Attempting to take women's identities away in order to pursue a prejudice is not protecting womens' rights, it's attacking womens' rights for being able to identify as women for the content of their minds. I am more than just a fanny on legs, though if that's true in your case you are welcome to own it, though I think it disturbingly regressive.
monkers
Legendary Member
Well that's a relief. I thought women were heading for a prostrate exam each time they wanted to use a public loo. Not sure I can always wait 20 minutes these days though - I'll end up being a Tena lady.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Not really a pivot, just giving you examples. It's an unfortunate reality for those who think sex isn't binary though because every cell only ever seems to male or female.
monkers
Legendary Member
Wait...you mean there aren't genital inspections to gain entry to women's toilets
But doesn't that mean rapists can get in????
Yeh well, I shouldn't make this public, but we butch lesbians enjoy nothing more than bursting into womens loos wearing huge strap-ons and doing all the cissy ladies.
Rape jokes are very bad taste indeed, but when I hear Greer telling other feminists that 'there is no such thing as rape, just bad sex' and I read the nonsense of AS with her ridiculous scare mongering, I need something to restore a sense of proportion and reason; sometimes that requires a bit of very base level humour. Anyway it gives AS something to cherry-pick away at and tell everyone what a bad person I am for declaring my gender identity.
AuroraSaab
Squire
There's no 'woman identity'. It's not a feeling in your head or a costume you can adopt. There's no 'content of your mind' that makes someone a woman. How could their be? That's the nonsensical 'lady brain'/born in the wrong body narrative that was so unscientific and incredulous that even Stonewall dropped it.
To suggest that you can be a woman due to the 'contents of your head' is regressive nonsense but you have to cling to it because it's the only thing that allows you call a man and woman, when science tells us that is an impossibility.
winjim
Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
Those aren't examples of 'every cell in your body' though. I do get your point but those examples don't back up your claim. Not that it matters, I know what you're saying.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Says someone who made crass remarks about flaccid penises and oral rape earlier in the thread. We all agree you can dentify as you like. Where we differ is how this impinges on the rights of others. Your sex hasn't changed since the day you were born. You know this as well as I do.
