Gender again. Sorry!

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multitool

Pharaoh
Maybe you and @multitool are right and women have nothing to fear from reforms that allow men to state they are women without any checks or balances. If that is the case why is it "trans genocide" to discuss the topic, or to point out that a good term for "people who menstruate" is "women"?

You called?

The problem with discussions like this is that rhetoric overtakes reality, gets legs of its own, then becomes reality for those on the extreme ends of it. For trans it can be the notion that everybody wants them dead (although, undeniably some do, and some others want them to never emerge from their houses and into public sphere), for the anti-transists it is the notion that trans people pose a threat. This might be the rhetoric that trans women are paedophiles or peeping toms. The reality is that trans women have used women's spaces for years and nobody noticed or cared, which is why the screaming and shouting only started when people decided to use it as a wedge issue and/or make a name for themselves.

Similarly, thos nonsense over language usage. When you actually listen to, for example, NHS trusts using terms like "people who menstruate", they are not excluding the use of "women", they are using this phrase in addition in order to include all.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
'If you don't like it then ignore it' is fine. But that isn't what's happening.

Driving people like Kathleen Stock from their jobs isn't 'no platforming', it's bullying. Preventing women from meeting together lawfully isn't 'choosing not to listen', it's actively denying them the right to assemble.

Framing any discussion on women's rights as anti-trans is just an excuse to justify using violence and intimidation to prevent women gathering. It's nobody's perogative to stop others meeting together peacefully within the law.

I didn't call it anything. Six hundred of her colleagues did after she wrote to them with her 'call to arms' letter. Just let that sink in.

The violence argument that you present is very one-sided. Violence against trans people seems to be increasing all the time including murder just for happening to be who they are. As the six hundred colleagues were at pains to point out, Stock's campaign how ever you view it was promoting harm.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
They aren't ignoring her. They have confiscated her research, withdrawn support, she has been bullied and harrassed, data has been withheld from her, prevented from publishing data, had her email account locked and been dismissed through a fabricated redundancy.

That is not an example of 'no platforming'. Look it up.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
If you can't get your head around this, imagine if she was a transman doing the same research. Do you think the result (in terms of being shut down) would have been the same?

Of course not. Those of us sticking up for women's rights tend to be the people who stick up for freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Yet we are often told that we are allied with the Facists. There are extremists on both the right and the left trying to capture both movements. People like Kathleen Stock and Laura Favaro are not trying to hurt people, cause "trans genocide" or any of the other ridiculous things that they and JK Rowling get accused of. They are asking that we have a discussion and that we consider women's rights as well as trans rights, because in some areas, these are not compatible.

Oh do stop ranting.

I've already told you I can't have an opinion on her work as I haven't seen it. I'm not prepared to play these mind games with you.

The long and short of it is that her employers took the decision to bring the project to a close. A tribunal is being planned. After the tribunal I will study the court documents and I might form an opinion.

Campaigning to remove the human rights of a minority group established in law is one element of fascism. We have a Home Secretary who even other Conservatives consider to be a fascist. There are others in the government including the present PM who are drawing the same kinds of comments, even from places as unexpected as Albania. Stock is trying to hurt people, she wants human rights to be stripped away. How hard is this for you to understand?
 
Campaigning to remove the human rights of a minority group established in law is one element of fascism.

Good job noone is doing that then. Preventing women from meeting to discuss things that concern them is rather authoritarian though.
Stock is trying to hurt people, she wants human rights to be stripped away. How hard is this for you to understand?

What human rights do trans people not have? What you demand are that privileges are given to one group of people over and above what we grant to others in the same group, ie. that transwomen shouldn't be subject to the regulations that exclude other men.
 

icowden

Squire
Oh do stop ranting.
I've already told you I can't have an opinion on her work as I haven't seen it. I'm not prepared to play these mind games with you.
I haven't asked you to. No-one has seen it as it has been confiscated.
The long and short of it is that her employers took the decision to bring the project to a close. A tribunal is being planned. After the tribunal I will study the court documents and I might form an opinion.
So you can't have an opinion about free speech because of the court tribunal?

Stock is trying to hurt people, she wants human rights to be stripped away. How hard is this for you to understand?
Very, as it is complete nonsense. She wants rights to be protected, not stripped away. How hard is this for you to understand?
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Good job noone is doing that then. Preventing women from meeting to discuss things that concern them is rather authoritarian though.


What human rights do trans people not have? What you demand are that privileges are given to one group of people over and above what we grant to others in the same group, ie. that transwomen shouldn't be subject to the regulations that exclude other men.

I am not demanding anything thanks. I'm commenting on a forum. My life as a woman is not affected by the rights of trans people, there is no contest. I've already told you my 'legitimate concern' which is that I sense a negative affect on me if the EqA is rewritten to define sex as biological sex - though how they will do that I don't know, because the people who keep asking 'what a woman is' seem incapable of answering that question themselves.

Even the Commission with a biased government appointee in the chair has warned the government that the proposal looks unworkable, but to listen to Sunak et al they seem determine to press ahead. The previous GEs conducted on a boast of getting Brexit done (it still isn't) and now 30p Lee is saying that the Tories plan to fight the next GE election with sorting out trans people in the next.

Meanwhile millions of children starve, key workers are having to use food banks, homelessness and rough sleeping are on the increase, the economy is failing, the NHS is in crisis, but the big push to negatively impact trans people because some of them have a uretha that's maybe a bit longer than those of ciswomen. First world problems eh, the fear that a trans woman will want to play a game of my uretha is longer than yours in a public loo. It's nonsense, but this failing regime needs a distraction, so trans people get thrown under the bus.

Young people will vote against this anti-trans ideology if Sunak and Starmer try to make a fight of that. It's just the old farts that want this quarrel, just like they wanted Brexit, and look where that got us.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
So you can't have an opinion about free speech because of the court tribunal?

I don't have an opinion on free speech no other than I agree with the law. When I listen to government and parliamentarians I despair because they clearly don't know the law.

All these people banging on about free speech, and guess what? They're wrong. I bet you are too.
 
My life as a woman is not affected by the rights of trans people, there is no contest.

It's your personal view that women's lives are not affected by the demands of transactivism. Other people have a different view and they have the right to discuss and campaign on these issues without fear of losing their jobs or being subject to abuse and intimidation.

Meanwhile millions of children starve, key workers are having to use food banks, homelessness and rough sleeping are on the increase, the economy is failing, the NHS is in crisis, but the big push to negatively impact trans people because some of them have a uretha that's maybe a bit longer than those of ciswomen.....

Hyperbolic whataboutery. Women can't discuss issues that matter to them until world hunger is ended, we all have a house, and the NHS has no waiting lists...... Ladies, be quiet and wait your turn.

The differences between males and females, both biologically and in terms of socialisation, consist of rather more than the length of the urethra. Otherwise we'd have sports categories and facilities based on that, not on sex. We don't.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Very, as it is complete nonsense. She wants rights to be protected, not stripped away. How hard is this for you to understand?

More than 3000 posts end, endless explanation, and you are still utterly clueless. But that's where we are at, government and the official opposition both misrepresenting the parliamentary standards, the constitution, sovereignty, democracy, and human rights.

People are lapping it up somnambulant to the loss of their human rights.

This what is happening on these islands, people are turning out and voting not to advantage themselves but to disadvantage others. They are believing the lies, that is not the government's fault that the country has turned to shoot, but desperate asylum seekers in small rubber boats, and of course trans people.

Icowden you've been recruited, and that's why we keep hearing that the tactics employed in elections in 1930s Germany are being repeated here and are working. Ask the Germans, they'll tell you!
 

monkers

Legendary Member
The differences between males and females, both biologically and in terms of socialisation, consist of rather more than the length of the urethra. Otherwise we'd have sports categories and facilities based on that, not on sex. We don't.
Why am I not surprised that you see this danger bigger than a national food crisis or the climate emergency? You've been recruited too.

It's time to look up and see what's coming.
 

icowden

Squire
I don't have an opinion on free speech no other than I agree with the law. When I listen to government and parliamentarians I despair because they clearly don't know the law.
So I'm guessing that in your version of:-
First they came for the Communists, And I did not speak out, Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me
you would give up at the point when the law said it was illegal to speak out?
 

icowden

Squire
cowden you've been recruited, and that's why we keep hearing that the tactics employed in elections in 1930s Germany are being repeated here and are working. Ask the Germans, they'll tell you!
And yet it's you that wants to silence people and mis-represent them.
Here's what Kathleen Stock has actually said:-
I think you might be on the side of the Nazis here, in wanting to stifle free speech and restrict publication of contrary opinon?

View: https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU
 
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