Gender again. Sorry!

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monkers

Legendary Member
“But for some people, free speech has become the end point. ‘I want to live in a society where people can say anything… the only thing that matters is I can say what I want.’ I don’t think that’s what John Stuart Mill and all the original thinkers who wrote on liberty and free speech meant and I don’t think it’s what I mean as the be all and end all.”

Am I reading a different quote?

No. I'm inviting you to compare that with other things that he has said at other times. He is not consistent. There's no objection from me if you have a different opinion of him, but I'll stick to my point, 'there's no right not to be offended' is a linguistic trick designed to dupe the gullible.
 

bobzmyunkle

Senior Member
there's no right not to be offended' is a linguistic trick designed to dupe the gullible
Your assertion, on which you build a convoluted arguement, that you appear to believe justifies the suppression of free speech.
My original quote from your post appeared to be a non-sequitur, however, I now see it isn't because ....
Well actually I don't, but I've given up the will to live.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Your assertion, on which you build a convoluted arguement, that you appear to believe justifies the suppression of free speech.
My original quote from your post appeared to be a non-sequitur, however, I now see it isn't because ....
Well actually I don't, but I've given up the will to live.

My assertion is based on an understanding of the law given to me by members of my family, three of which are barristers, one currently working in Europe as a specialist lawyer in the field of human rights.

I haven't given you an opinion that free speech needs to be 'suppressed'. What I have done is state what the existing position is in international and UK law. I think the people are forgetting its purpose, to have the legal right to speak truth to power and stand up to abusive authority.

What the government are doing is blindsiding the electorate, promoting themselves as defenders of free speech, in the process creating culture wars. At the same time they are the suppressors of those right. This is made clear by them each day with references to 'lefty lawyers' and with the media previously declaring judges to be 'enemies of the people'. It's a stitch up, and they are getting away with it. This thread being all the evidence one needs to see.

AS with her claims that international law is nebulous and doesn't apply here is just bollocks. She accuses me of mental gymnastics, but time and again she is without facts or evidence.

We are bound by the UN through the decisions of the ICJ, we are bound by the European Convention on Human Rights through the decisions of the ECtHR. The government wish to remove us from the latter as that is the one that enables ordinary citizens a court of last resort in which to seek effective remedy of abuses of the state.

We stand to lose that, we stand to see interference in the separation of the the legislature and the judiciary. In the latter case because the intrepid Gina Miller was able to twice defeat the government in the Supreme Court for abuses.

How will the ordinary citizen defend themselves from state abuse if the authority of the courts to judge the lawfulness or otherwise of government, to seek effective remedy against devolved authorities, and without the availability of legal aid. And then without recourse to ultimate arbitration at the European Court of Human Rights.

There is a power grab going on, removing the rights of citizens in a functioning democracy, under the cover of a manufactured culture war to take on 'wokery'. Brexit was a power grab, this is a further power grab, and for the second time, the government are recruiting useful idiots.
 
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icowden

Squire
I haven't given you an opinion that free speech needs to be 'suppressed'. What I have done is state what the existing position is in international and UK law. I think the people are forgetting its purpose, to have the legal right to speak truth to power and stand up to abusive authority.
Unless that abusive authority is a transwoman. Then they have the right to shut up and go away cos genocide.


We are bound by the UN through the decisions of the ICJ, we are bound by the European Convention on Human Rights through the decisions of the ECtHR. The government wish to remove us from the latter as that is the one that enables ordinary citizens a court of last resort in which to seek effective remedy of abuses of the state.

So this means we should suppress research and intimidate scholars?

How will the ordinary citizen defend themselves from state abuse if the authority of the courts to judge the lawfulness or otherwise of government, to seek effective remedy against devolved authorities, and without the availability of legal aid. And then without recourse to ultimate arbitration at the European Court of Human Rights.
There is a power grab going on, removing the rights of citizens in a functioning democracy, under the cover of a manufactured culture war to take on 'wokery'. Brexit was a power grab, this is a further power grab, and for the second time, the government are recruiting useful idiots.
Agree but this has nothing to do with the suppression of women and academics.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
So this means we should suppress research and intimidate scholars?

You have no idea of the reason the university have reached their decision. However unlike you, I haven't decided on a cause.

Again it's bizarre. I have to keep repeating - I don't know what has happened, so I have no opinion and can't comment. You however have decided there is some link between an abusive trans woman and the case. You think this is rational?
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Agree but this has nothing to do with the suppression of women and academics.

It has everything to do with any or all of us. This is about some people 'taking back control'. What that meant in relation to Brexit was taking the sovereign rights of people and gifting them to billionaire chums. The project is underway but not yet complete.
 
They aren't ignoring her. They have confiscated her research, withdrawn support, she has been bullied and harrassed, data has been withheld from her, prevented from publishing data, had her email account locked and been dismissed through a fabricated redundancy.

If you can't get your head around this, imagine if she was a transman doing the same research. Do you think the result (in terms of being shut down) would have been the same?

Of course not. Those of us sticking up for women's rights tend to be the people who stick up for freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Yet we are often told that we are allied with the Facists. There are extremists on both the right and the left trying to capture both movements. People like Kathleen Stock and Laura Favaro are not trying to hurt people, cause "trans genocide" or any of the other ridiculous things that they and JK Rowling get accused of. They are asking that we have a discussion and that we consider women's rights as well as trans rights, because in some areas, these are not compatible.

I saw another thread this week from a lady who is disabled. She has no sensation from the neck down and is totally reliant on carers 24/7 for feeding, personal care etc. Why should she lose the ability to specify that she only wants carers who are female? Why is it not her right to manage her own personal care and decide who she finds threatening and who she would prefer helping her in her most intimate daily routines? But no. She is "transphobic".

You can keep on pretending that the gender ideology movement poses no threat to women. There are however, a number of women who disagree with you whether they are coming second in elite sport or being sidelined by men.
They appear (will wait until better information is available before altering my wording) to have removed her access to work that she was being paid to do on behalf of the university. They, the university, have the right to protect their reputation and integrity. She may have collected the data, but that doesn't mean ownership is hers. That will be in her contract somewhere. Having done similar work, I was aware from the start of the work that I had no right to claim ownership, and that the people paying for the work to be done had the right to take it from me, at any time. Leaving me with no legal claim to the data collected by me, from the word go. All given in the contract signed by me, before starting the work.

If she was a trans man, she wouldn't be asking for her work to be returned to her. Nor would anyone legally qualified be referring to her, her work, her data.

With regards the right to say who you want providing intimate care for you. I was told, when i raised similar concerns, that it's the nature of the care services. Taken as meaning I had no say in the matter, I should just accept it. Then told in the next sentence that I should be allowed to choose who provides the care. Why is it different for a man?

In August '99, I was seen and examined by three specialists, two were females. Cancer in an area that's "delicate" for a male. Seen by a female doctor after the operation, to check that the area was healing as expected, and a nurse who removed the stitches. No alternative available, unless I wanted to wait until they could get a male nurse to do the job. By which time the stitches would have been in too long.
I didn't kick off, demanding that the choice of who did what was down to me, not those providing the care. They were doing their work, providing the required care as best they could. I was aware of that from the start, and appreciated the care, and consideration they showed me throughout.
 
I haven't googled her but as she's pro-life in that screenshot I'd say she's not a feminist. Just because her views on some things might correlate with feminist views doesn't mean feminists should abandon those views for fear of being associated with her wider opinions.

I think you demand a level of political purity from gender critical feminists, and an insistence that they avoid guilt by association, that you don't demand of others in politics.
A TUV councillor who accepted money from another political party member. To help her pay back money she owed to the council.
 

icowden

Squire
Again it's bizarre. I have to keep repeating - I don't know what has happened, so I have no opinion and can't comment. You however have decided there is some link between an abusive trans woman and the case. You think this is rational?
It isn't because you just made it up. You need to distinguish the straw man argument I put forth re freedom of speech from the suppression of academic freedom. As I said, you seem to only support free speech if you agree with it.

If I have this wrong, you won't mind KJK or JK Rowling speaking out for women's rights, as you will recognise that there is a debate to be had and valid points on both sides of the argument.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Not really. You seem to champion freedom of speech, but only if the people you agree with are speaking.
You seem to think that shutting down those you disagree with is normal.

It isn't.
Then you really don't understand what freedom of speech is, and what it isn't. I've tried to help, but you keep making this about trans people, whereas I'm making it about all people - 'universal declaration'.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
It isn't because you just made it up. You need to distinguish the straw man argument I put forth re freedom of speech from the suppression of academic freedom. As I said, you seem to only support free speech if you agree with it.

If I have this wrong, you won't mind KJK or JK Rowling speaking out for women's rights, as you will recognise that there is a debate to be had and valid points on both sides of the argument.

My main problem with Rowling is that she's a liar. That's the thing about freedom of speech, you can respect a person's freedom, but there is no requirement to respect the opinion especially when it is founded on a lie.
 
Nobody is demanding that you respect anyone's opinion, only that you respect that they have a right to say it if it's within the law. And that they should be free to say it without intimidation or violence.

You don't respect that right. In fact, you try to suggest it doesn't exist. All to avoid having people hear ideas and opinions that you disagree with rather than allowing analysis and open debate.
 
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