Gender again. Sorry!

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monkers

Legendary Member
So I'm guessing that in your version of:-

you would give up at the point when the law said it was illegal to speak out?

Do you know, if you would just spend more time on thinking about what I am saying and less time guessing about.

You are talking about free speech again. I've said that free speech is the right to speak, but not the right to demand that university students be made to listen. There is a problem here because people in the UK are inclined to think that we have absolute right to free speech. So what does the law actually have to say?
 

icowden

Squire
You are talking about free speech again. I've said that free speech is the right to speak, but not the right to demand that university students be made to listen.
And no-one has demanded that. What has happened is that researchers have been shut down and prevented from doing research for no good reason.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
And no-one has demanded that. What has happened is that researchers have been shut down and prevented from doing research for no good reason.

You can't possibly know that. You are choosing to think it because a government keen on state level abuse of citizens wants you to believe it.

Exactly why I said 'you've been recruited'. You are sleepwalking towards a fascist regime.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
@icowden

You are talking about free speech again. I've said that free speech is the right to speak, but not the right to demand that university students be made to listen. There is a problem here because people in the UK are inclined to think that we have absolute right to free speech. So what does the law actually have to say?

You have also said that the university is no platforming in this instance. I asked you to look up the meaning. Did you? I don't know if you have resolved that one.


That researcher has not been no platformed. No platforming occurs when students refuse en masse to hear from a particular speaker, usually as an extra-curricular activity, rather than a defined part of their programme. At one time the state provided students with university places with free courses and grants for living expenses. That is no longer the case, universities are now part of a market with a cap on the fees that can be charged. Instead of it being the market they said it would be, the cap has become a near universal course fee. Students can borrow the money, but interest is charged, and the loans are no longer in public hands but privatised. Students then, are now fee paying customers in a market. They study in an environment that is a market in higher education, and financed in a market for finance. That means they have consumer rights, to get what they pay for. As adults they have prerogative.

The researcher has not been no platformed by students, she has been sanctioned by her employers for a reason unknown to us. The university has seized their property, and released her.

Parliamentarians sometimes refer to free speech coming from the Bill of Rights 1689. The Bill of Rights gives parliamentarians the right to free speech in the debating chamber of the House of Commons under 'parliamentary privilege'. So nothing there for ordinary citizens.

Freedom of expression is stated in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. From there it tends to be copy and pasted into international law at other levels. It is to be seen at the Council of Europe where it is ensured by the European Court of Human Rights; it is also written into EU treaty law, whereupon EU member states are required to adopt it into domestic law.

This is something of a belts and braces approach since all EU member states are members of the Council of Europe, the ECtHR, and signatories of EU treaties. The EU itself is not a member of the Council of Europe or ECtHR since it is not in itself a sovereign entity, but as an intergovernmental organisation with a legal personality it is an official observer.

Right so where does that leave the UK? It is no longer in the EU but has hencefar retained the Human Rights Act that was required by EU treaty law. The UK is still a member of the Council of Europe, and the European Court of Human Rights, and the United Nations.

The UK has agreed to and signed each paragraph of all articles of the UNDHR from where those rights are cemented at each level. The UN is the daddy. Under the relevant article of the UNDHR, free speech is not guaranteed as an 'absolute right'. It is a 'qualified right' meaning that the member state has the legal competence to vary that right under their own sovereign law. Therefore EU member states have a sovereign right to vary the extent that this right applies to ordinary citizens in their own state under their own constitutional arrangements.

For many countries the right is affirmed as part of a codified constitution, only the UK doesn't have one. Therefore the right is absolute except for statutes where the right is restricted.

Worse still, international rights law is written as a set of positive rights - a citizen is allowed only to do what is written in law as permitted.

The UK has a negative rights system - a citizen can do anything they like unless it is prohibited by statute (or case law). So it gets messy. The UK has a whole raft of acts that prohibit the free speech seemingly guaranteed by the UNDHR. You might hear somebody say we don't have free speech because 'you can not go into a theatre and shout fire'. Well actually you can do that under free speech because that form of words applied to that location are not specifically prohibited by law in the UK negative rights system. So you can, but not without consequence from infringement of some other law found somewhere in statute pertaining to the safety of others.

Further some human rights found in the UNDR are absolute. Where a case is brought between individuals with seemingly competing human rights, a primary test is to see if the rights are both absolute and require the court to set a boundary using case law. If it is seen that one claimant has an absolute right and the other a qualified right, then the absolute right holds preponderance over the qualified right.

Therefore a person has a right to freedom of expression, but only if it does not impinge or infringe upon the absolute right of another.

The wording of the article uses the term 'without frontier'. This gives us the function of the right, the right to speak truth to power, and not the right to abuse others - hence we have laws to keep us free from abuse, harassment and victimisation.

That old trope told by Stephen Fry et al 'there is no right not to be offended' is bollocks. There does not need to be a right not to be offended since we do not have the right to give or cause offence. It's a device that exposes the difference between how positive and negative rights are expressed, and not the supposed right to give or cause offence.

So does a public speaker have the right to freedom of expression in a university. Well yes, if they have been invited to be in a university space at a given date and time. However they have no more right to demand an audience than a washed-up comedian in a theatre.

And yet, we have arrived at a situation where students in the modern marketplace of a university are choosing which speakers they wish to listen to and those they don't. This is a freedom, a prerogative, just as one is free to switch off the television when Jim Davidson comes on.

The government will try to tell you that these universities are full of lefty lecturers and right on woke students, and this is a problem.
It isn't a problem it's healthy. Students have their own conscience and have the right to freedom of thought and belief.

Freedom of expression of a speaker does not hold legal preponderance over a person's right to freedom of thought, conscience or belief.

In other words, the criticism of the state is an imposition, an insistence to indoctrinate a view favourable to that government - and yes, it smacks of the tactics used in 1930s Germany.

The 'war on woke' is a state level abuse of the rights of citizens. We must rid ourselves of this government.
 
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monkers

Legendary Member
You misunderstand. I was questioning your logic, not the law.

Fair enough, I admit that wasn't clear to me.

I'm sure you've heard 'there is no right not to be offended'. It's a linguistic device. It has the appearance of truth since there is no right set out in those terms.

Intended interpretation: I have an absolute right to say anything I like to whoever I like, so suck it up. 'I can do what I like unless the law expressly forbids it' - an example of the familiar UK negative rights system. The UK Human Rights Act being copied and pasted down via international law stems from a positive rights system.

UN human rights are expressed as positive rights, 'you can only do what we tell you is permitted'. Article 1, says that we are equal in dignity and effectively tells us that we must live together in the spirit of brotherly love.

Therefore 'there is no right to be offended' sounds like a truth, but it is false, since we are prohibited immediately at Article 1 from assaulting the dignity of another.

A similar linguistic device was highly successive in persuasiveness during the referendum campaign, 'the unelected Commission'. It is true that those working at the Commission were unelected; but it is a falsehood since in any democratic system only those with the power to use a vote in a democratic process need to be elected. The Commission are the civil servants of the EU, and just like UK civil servants they are appointed.
 
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bobzmyunkle

Senior Member
Intended interpretation: I have an absolute right to say anything I like to whoever I like, so suck it up.
Seeing as you mentioned Stephen Fry, have you asked him if that was his intention?
I, for one, don't read his words to mean that. Maybe you have evidence otherwise?
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Seeing as you mentioned Stephen Fry, have you asked him if that was his intention?
I, for one, don't read his words to mean that. Maybe you have evidence otherwise?

Stephen Fry said ...
“I’ve sort of wanted to go on – now, you’ll have to hold your ears – and say, ‘Hello, how are you, you old c***? It’s f***ing great to see you, you c***y, c***y, c*** c***.’ And him to go, ‘Sorry, you can’t say that.’ ‘Oh, I thought this was home of free speech, isn’t it? I thought this was the f***ing home of c***ing free speech, isn’t it?

“But it isn’t. Oh, so free speech is negotiable so there are bits that you can’t say and bits that you can because that’s the point. I mean, free speech is, of course, important but it’s not the end point.”

Fry added: “The end point is human beings living together in peace and harmony and happiness as much as possible, without war and violence and envy and resentment and bitterness… that’s the end point.

“But for some people, free speech has become the end point. ‘I want to live in a society where people can say anything… the only thing that matters is I can say what I want.’ I don’t think that’s what John Stuart Mill and all the original thinkers who wrote on liberty and free speech meant and I don’t think it’s what I mean as the be all and end all.”


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdpxKqEUAw


On the one hand he acknowledges that in the UK free speech is restricted, but he wants it to be absolute, at least for him, so sets up the presentation that you have no right to be offended because he wants the right to be able to offend you and call you a whiner.

At other times Fry has 'whined' that he was bullied in childhood. He has also said that he is 'offended' by church leaders who deny gay rights.

I have my own opinion of him based on all this, but others are free to have their own.
 
UN human rights are expressed as positive rights, 'you can only do what we tell you is permitted'. Article 1, says that we are equal in dignity and effectively tells us that we must live together in the spirit of brotherly love.

Therefore 'there is no right to be offended' sounds like a truth, but it is false, since we are prohibited immediately at Article 1 from assaulting the dignity of another.

Whatever nebulous directions the United Nations make on human rights they don't supercede UK law. You might as well quote the Bible or the Qur'an and expect us to take our lead from that. None of it compells behaviour in the UK, nor should it.

The situation isn't that students are choosing not to attend things they don't agree with. It's that transactivists are actively preventing others, via a campaign of violence and intimidation, from attending things that they are entitled to attend and which are within the law.

It requires some strenuous mental gymnastics to interpret this as anything but bullying and intimidation in an authoritarian manner. It's certainly not progressive.
 
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monkers

Legendary Member
Whatever nebulous directions the United Nations make on human rights they don't supercede UK law. You might as well quote the Bible or the Qur'an and expect us to take our lead from that. None of it compells behaviour in the UK, nor should it.

The situation isn't that students are choosing not to attend things they don't agree with. It's that transactivists are actively preventing others, via a campaign of violence and intimidation, from attending things that they are entitled to attend and which are within the law.

It requires

Incorrect, but I understand why it suits you to think otherwise. The UK contributed many of the texts to the UNDHR. It was Churchill who sat at the table chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt. The UK signed every paragraph of every article, other countries did not. The UK was a founder member of the UN and has an elevated status within it as a permanent member of the security council. It is a lofty position from which at time the UK has been able to hold influence on the international stage. Blair diminished that over Iraq but that's another story.

We are bound to it through our membership of the Council of Europe and our agreement to fall under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights; rulings of which are binding on the UK. We were formally bound to international rights law through our membership of the EU, and the UK Human Rights Act put into statue by parliament was a treaty requirement.

So yes at the present time we are bound to it.
 
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You have to wonder why trans activists don't just take Kathleen Stock to court under UN regulations then, rather than dressing in black masks and holding smoke bombs outside her office. Surely legal recourse would be better than aggressively stopping feminists meetings or sending death threats on Twitter. Not as much fun funding lawyers as it is dressing in black and screaming abuse at women I expect.
 

bobzmyunkle

Senior Member
Stephen Fry said .

“But for some people, free speech has become the end point. ‘I want to live in a society where people can say anything… the only thing that matters is I can say what I want.’ I don’t think that’s what John Stuart Mill and all the original thinkers who wrote on liberty and free speech meant and I don’t think it’s what I mean as the be all and end all.”

Am I reading a different quote?
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Whatever nebulous directions the United Nations make on human rights they don't supercede UK law. You might as well quote the Bible or the Qur'an and expect us to take our lead from that. None of it compells behaviour in the UK, nor should it.

The situation isn't that students are choosing not to attend things they don't agree with. It's that transactivists are actively preventing others, via a campaign of violence and intimidation, from attending things that they are entitled to attend and which are within the law.

It requires some strenuous mental gymnastics to interpret this as anything but bullying and intimidation in an authoritarian manner. It's certainly not progressive.

I've read this for a second time ... and now I'm Rowling on the floor laughing my arse off ...

stated aims and manifesto pledges of this government have been to
leave the EU and the ECJ
Leave the ECtHR
Abolish the UK Human Rights Act
Abolish the Human Rights Commission
Restrict the availability of UK courts for those people seeking effective remedy to abuses of the state (Gina Miller fear)
Do away with legal aid
Write their own Bill of Rights

Feminists complain about the patriarchy, nevertheless here you are backing a government hostile to human rights to write a new British Bill of Rights.

Has it occurred to you yet, that without the protection of international law, women's rights can go in the ash can just like that, and so too can the right of the individual to stand up to abuses of the state? Already the right to assembly and the right to protest are under threat, or the right to be noisy at a protest. Steve Bray had his microphone and speaker confiscated by the police under the new powers.

You really need to be careful what you wish for.
 
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