Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

Here's research that backs up the prison stats:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

"Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls."

ie. Transwomen offend at a higher rate than other men, not just at a higher rate than women. And these are the ones who have gone through surgery.

That isn't what the report says at all.

It says TW offend at higher rates than females, but not males.ie. TW maintain the offending pattern of males.

Interestingly TM do not...

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

 

[multitool]

And, by the way, currently in UK prisons there are more violent incidents (per pop.) in female prisons than male prisons.

 

[AuroraSaab]

"Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls."

- means exactly what it says. Females to males (ie transwomen) had a higher risk of conviction than the control group which was of their birth sex (ie male).

And no surprise that transmen (ie women) have increased offending rates over that of biological women - it's probably the testosterone. But still nowhere near male and transwomen rates of offending, because they are socialised as women.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-rorschach-test/

This article breaks down the stats from the latest census, which showed 48k people self-identified as transwomen in England and Wales. If you look at the number of transwomen prisoners, and compare that to male and female numbers, transwomen are massively over represented in prisons.

Crime aside, you have to wonder why on earth 30 million women have to lose their rights to single sex spaces to accommodate 38,000 men who represent 0.12% of the population.


Can you really not concede that there are men, and quite a number of men, who have not had crushing body dysphoria ftom a young age, who are not genuinely living with this mental health condition, but who instead just get a massive thrill from being in women's spaces? And that we exclude all men because we can't tell the difference?

 

[multitool]

."

- means exactly what it says. Females to males (ie transwomen) had a higher risk of conviction than the control group which was of their birth sex (ie male).

One of us is misunderstanding this Surely, 'females to male' means trans men?

Can you really not concede that there are men, and quite a number of men, who have not had crushing body dysphoria ftom a young age, who are not genuinely living with this mental health condition, but who instead just get a massive thrill from being in women's spaces?

see my post below

And that we exclude all men because we can't tell the difference?

This is where things get complex, because...guess what...its complex.

 

[winjim]

Jesus Christ

 

[Ian H]

Jesus Christ

 

[AuroraSaab]

I apologise. You are correct on interpreting that research. The earlier para notes that Males to Female retain male offending patterns; the second para notes that Females to Males have higher rates than biological women.

So still the case that transwomen offend like other males. Which in the case of sex and violent crimes is massively more. Which is why we exclude them all.

You seem to concede that there are men for whom wearing certain clothes and being in women's spaces is simply a huge fetish. What solution do you have to keeping these men away from women and girls? Saying it's nuanced and complex isn't enough when you're happy to waive through self-ID in the meantime.

 

[multitool]

Right, so can you go back and edit ALL your posts where you claim that trans women have HIGHER offending rates than men, because it is wrong.

For clarification, on the pervy men who get off on being in women's spaces...I read your post too fast on a tiny screen, so actually I need to qualify my previous answer:

No, I do not think the majority of trans women are sex offending cosplaying men doing it for access to women's spaces, which is what I think you were really saying. Do I think it is possible that such men exist? Yes. But given the social stigma of transitioning, the bullying, the verbal and physical assaults, I can think of easier ways to get a thrill. And guess what, I'm pretty sure most sex offenders take the easier option. You don't need to put yourself through daily hell of transitioning to expose yourself to a woman. Men just do it anyway.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Right, so can you go back and edit ALL your posts where you claim that trans women have HIGHER offending rates than men, because it is wrong.

For clarification, on the pervy men who get off on being in women's spaces...I read your post too fast on a tiny screen, so actually I need to qualify my previous answer:

No, I do not think the majority of trans women are cosplaying men doing it for access to women's spaces, which is what I think you were really saying. Do I think it is possible that such men exist? Yes. But given the social stigma of transitioning, the bullying, the verbal and physical assaults, I can think of easier ways to get a thrill. And guess what, I'm pretty sure most sex offenders take the easier option. You don't need to put yourself through daily hell of transitioning to expose yourself to a woman. Men just do it anyway.

Hmmmmm....multitool, is that significant to this subject I wonder?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Nah. I'm good with the links I posted thanks. The figures show transwomen are over represented in the UK prison population, even amongst male offenders.

You acknowledge that they at least offend at the same rates as other men, which means they are massively - and the gulf is huge - more likely to be sex offenders than women. Which is why we need single sex spaces that exclude all men. All of them.

Many of these men you are shilling for aren't going through the difficulties of transitioning though are they? The vast majority don't undergo surgery. Many don't take hormones. If you check you'll find that blokes dressing as women and being in toilets etc is it's own niche porn category so the idea that a man won't spend an afternoon visiting women's changing rooms in department stores is nonsense. These aren't genuinely trans people but you want women to give every one of them the benefit of the doubt and admit them to women's spaces. And it costs you nothing.

The fact is the vast majority of women don't want male bodies around them in changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards, or any other intimate space, but you simply think these men should get what they want because they want it. You have no solution to the problem other than waiving away single sex spaces and seeing how it pans out later.

Yes, men will always offend against women but there's no need to make it easier. I bet you lock your car even though a thief could steal it if he (and it will be a he) wanted to.

In fact guys, just Google 'sissy porn' and get back to me on the 'give them all the benefit of the doubt because some are genuine' thing.

 

[multitool]

Nah. I'm good with the links I posted thanks. The figures show transwomen are over represented in the UK prison population, even amongst male offenders.

That isn't what I've asked you to , is it. I caught you misrepresenting a report because you didn't understand basic terminology. Not only that, but you initially doubled-down on your mistake. Now I'm asking to to edit where you made the same erroneous claims in prior posts, but instead of doing so you are taking the opportunity to bang a different drum and deflect from the misinformation you posted. I get that you are impassioned, but integrity is important.

You acknowledge that they at least offend at the same rates as other men, which means they are massively - and the gulf is huge - more likely to be sex offenders than women. Which is why we need single sex spaces that exclude all men. All of them.

Let's apply that logic to other areas of life. We know that some men are paedophiles. We know they are far more likely than women to be paedophiles. Some paedophiles masquerade as teachers to gain access to children. Children's spaces are regulated by safeguarding law to keep paedophiles out. Therfore we should exclude all men from schools because we just can't tell which ones are which. And it doesn't matter that it's a tiny minority. Just one is one too many. Kick men out. Don't try telling me that this is unfair to men because allowing men in comes at no cost to you. Its easy for you, because its the children that suffer.

See? It's the absolutism and essentialism that doesn't work.

Many of these men you are shilling for aren't going through the difficulties of transitioning though are they?

"Shilling for"? Get stuffed.

The fact is the vast majority of women don't want male bodies around them in changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards, or any other intimate space, but you simply think these men should get what they want because they want it. You have no solution to the problem other than waiving away single sex spaces and seeing how it pans out later.

There's you talking bollocks again.

The fact? Facts have to be determined by evidence and proof. The fact is that the majority of women appear to be comfortable with trans women in women's spaces. How do we know? Because women have been surveyed:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...positive-attitudes-towards-transgender-people

'Aurora's opinion' ≠ fact.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Now I'm asking to to edit where you made the same erroneous claims in prior posts,

Technical point:

We cannot edit or delete previous posts on this forum, beyond a short time (an hour I believe).

 

[multitool]

Ah, fair enough. But she did respond within the hour, and said she wouldn't, in which case she is wilfully misleading people.

 

[jowwy]

Ah, fair enough. But she did respond within the hour, snd said she wouldn't, in which case she is wilfully misleading people.

Welcome to naca, the place where people enjoy wilfully misleading people. From all parts of the political spectrum.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I misread the last para but it doesn't detract from the main issue. Transwomen offend at male rates which is gargantuanly higher than females. Not just a little bit. Massively. And of course that's just offending, which is where you seem to set the bar for what matters rather than just women feeling uncomfortable and requiring privacy and dignity.

As to school safeguarding, we do exclude people from schools though. It's usually at least one locked door to get inside, often two. And we exclude by requiring references and a CRB check for staff to be anywhere near the kids. And we do 'exclude' male teachers even further because we don't let them take a mixed class of kids on a trip without a female present because we all know that wouldn't be appropriate. We don't usually let them take a child to the toilet or help them change for PE either.

Your analogy only works if we already let a male teacher change with the girls he teaches for their swimming lesson. We don't. We exclude him on the grounds of privacy, dignity, and safety.

Despite all this safeguarding we still have lots of cases of paedophile teachers - and they are practically always male. Because men are the risk, even the ones who have passed a CRB check and seem lovely. Ditto police officers and medics.

Here's a 2022 survey showing there's actually an overall decline in support for transgender rights. In the past people have assumed a transgender woman meant people who had been through therapy and even surgery. When they know it means anybody who says they are a woman, the support drops quite a bit.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society...-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

And of course, sports:

For you though there will never be enough proof because you either don't want to believe that some men will go to any lengths to be in women's intimate spaces or you think they should have a right to be there regardless of what women want.