D
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
- Start date
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mudsticks
Squire
But that's where you maybe don't understand the needs of a group of women (and trans women, and non binary folk) at a gathering such as this.
All the man (may) be doing is turning up as an average sort of man, and being crass and insensitive to the needs and feelings of women (and trans women) they're not actually being disruptive in terms of being drunk, or chucking things about, or whatever
They're just exhibiting 'normal' blokeish behaviour.
eg dominating the conversation, trying to come up with unasked for 'solutions' to issues that they don't even have direct experience of.
What's the problem, "Don't be so sensitive"
If they say they are a woman, and we're not (of course) asking for 'proof' in any real sense, we're just going on trust, we have to accept that, even if all our 'spider senses' say otherwise. .
Some people will manipulate the trust and goodwill of others, for their own selfish ends..
That's far more likely to be a blokeish bloke, taking the piss in what he thinks is an oh so hilarious manner, than an actual 'genuine' transwomen, but that in itself doesn't make it any easier to deal with.
Basically large parts of society really are not evolved or concious enough to deal with the concept of trans genderism.
And large parts of society are that way because of the historical, and violent grip of patriachy that hasn't gone away.
Telling women that they've got to just deal with the idea of men in their spaces, when they've already been brutalised, and disregarded enough - the reason they want safe spaces in the first place - isn't good enough .
As I've said many times before no one spends even one fiftieth the time addressing issues such as the toxic masculinity that causes women to need and want safe spaces, in the first place, as they do on here telling people defending those safe spaces that they are narrow minded and bigoted.
monkers
Legendary Member
Man and woman are gender categories. 'Sex' became too erotic a word for English tastes so we replaced it with a word with a definition that approximated it, but has other definitions too.
If nuance is too difficult for you, maybe just leave it to others to do the thinking while you just keep on repeating what you think you know.
It's all good.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Then you don't believe in single sex spaces and services for women at all then. There are no special categories of men who are fundamentally different from other men.
I think you fundamentally don't understand how some women feel with males present in certain spaces. We have to wait until they are disruptive? Mudsticks event isn't an event that would be considered a vulnerable space, but you can't seriously be saying a rape crisis group for women should have to admit a transwoman and as long as they are not disruptive you don't see a problem.
D
Deleted member 159
Guest
No, Man denotes male, Woman denotes female
The origin of the naming of female woman came out in the 1100s
Pale Rider
Veteran
Entry requirements for @mudsticks event have a nasty taste of gender cleansing.
If I attempted to run an event only open to 'blokeish blokes' no doubt I would be pilloried, not to mention in breach of some well-meaning law or regulation.
That there is no easy way to enforce the requirements is reassuring.
I can understand those who are welcome to attend would much rather be among like-minded people.
Practically, I think all @mudsticks can do is aim the event squarely at those she wishes to attract, but even then care would be needed in the preparation of the publicity material.
If there is none or very little, the best hope - and likely outcome - is only those 'in the know' will turn up.
If I attempted to run an event only open to 'blokeish blokes' no doubt I would be pilloried, not to mention in breach of some well-meaning law or regulation.
That there is no easy way to enforce the requirements is reassuring.
I can understand those who are welcome to attend would much rather be among like-minded people.
Practically, I think all @mudsticks can do is aim the event squarely at those she wishes to attract, but even then care would be needed in the preparation of the publicity material.
If there is none or very little, the best hope - and likely outcome - is only those 'in the know' will turn up.
classic33
Me
Redefined by the Cambridge dictionary
"In the same vein, the updated definition of “woman” reads “an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth.”"
https://nypost.com/2022/12/13/cambridge-dictionary-changes-definition-of-man-and-woman/
monkers
Legendary Member
So words are only allowed by Andy to have a single simple definition, must not evolve to reflect progress, and nuance is disallowed.
The Age of Enlightenment must be revoked and time must revert to the 12th Century. Terrific argument you have there.
D
Deleted member 159
Guest
So is
'Gaslighter'
Meaning: A person who deceives and psychologically manipulates another into questioning his or her own perceptions or sanity.
modern understanding, simplified-denier of biological fact
Bromptonaut
Rohan Man
- Location
- Bugbrooke, Northants
Generally speaking the law says "Thou shalt not discriminate" but there are exceptions such as, for example, occupational need or other things where discrimination is a proportionate means to a legitimate end. Improving the numbers from under represented groups, such as women in farming, would probably fit that bill. Same where there are women only bike maintenance classes.
I'm not going to bend my mind finding an example but there could well be areas where men, or cohorts amongst men, are under represnted ot whatever. Probably not Blokeish Blokes though
icowden
Legendary Member
And it isn't as clear cut as most people think. Woman is not a derivative term from man.
There used to be "man" which was used as we would use "person". So everyone is a man. Then there were werman or waepman (male man) and wifman (female man). Loads of spelling variations abounded, so wifman became wiman. Eventually male man just eneded up being man and female man woman.
So many of those descriptors postman, fireman etc have their roots in man being person rather than being something for men only.
@monkers point is how we define what it is to be woman or a man. It's not easy - we can go with XX, XY but there are always exceptions. But then there are exceptions in every category and for a very small, rare group of people it's a difficult choice and involves lots of consideration of both biology and feeling.
Of course none of that really matters unless it is in an area where detailed investigation can be carried out such as elite sport. One of the things I do agree with @monkers on is that there is no way of proscribing anyone from using any particular facility or resource based solely on whether they are male or female. Some women look very masculine, some transwomen look naturally feminine - even on the sports scene. Fatima Whitbread and the Williams sisters have both been accused of being too masculine etc. Hence I also agree that a risk based approach is better, probably even at a level of prisons, rape crisis etc.
Where we diverge in agreement is that I am not sure it is a good idea to make it easier to get a GRC, I think the currently level of requirement is reasonable - but that is just my opinion. I also remain unconvinced that hormones and surgery are a good idea for anyone, but especially not for the very young. Generally surgical intervention is used to improve health outcomes. I also disagree with cosmetic surgery unless you are, for example a burns victim. I tend to the view that we are who we are and we should really learn to live with that. It doesn't stop anyone doing anything.
I don't think that this is a particularly radical viewpoint. Above all else we need to move cautiously and do more research. There was a post a few million posts back about whether or not post-surgical trans people are more likely to commit suicide. There is a very good research paper which backs up this idea. But... The paper is from 2011. So there is then the question of whether the findings are only representative of the world in 2011 and whether with trans being more accepted and more public, outcomes would be different for a 2023 study. Until that is carried outwe have no realy way of measuring. Similarly I would hope that anyone being offered surgical or hormonal intervention would be talked through it very very carefully and the risks very clearly outlined.
monkers
Legendary Member
Cirrus
Active Member
Probably won’t be overly popular on either side of the debate but I think there needs to be more clarity around classification and purpose.
Defined more on biology e.g. male/female rather than gender (as is happening in some sports), If a space or service is deemed to be for females only then males should be excluded, more statutory.
Where that’s not the case e.g. a women/gender specific group or event then it should be down to the owners/ organisers to define in line with any anti discriminatory/inclusivity legislation.
To cut a long story short, is the space/ service biology or gender specific.
monkers
Legendary Member
Okaaay.
So what do the words 'girl' and 'boy' mean?
This post comes with a warning; it's a trap.
Ian H
Legendary Member
Surely, at your event, you define what constitutes disruptive behaviour. It could be as you describe, leaving you with a difficult situation, but as you say, it's unlikely. I expect that the event will go off satisfactorily and pre-event nerves will disappear once it's underway.
