Gender again. Sorry!

[Deleted member 159]

In human rights law the rights of the many do not outweigh the few, we are all equal before the law regardless of your wish for special pleading.

That's not working for real women is it

 

[monkers]

That's not working for real women is it

Do you feel threatened by trans men 'stealing' all your rights too?

 

[Bromptonaut]

That's not working for real women is it

Only if we use your weird, philosophically perverted even, definition.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Assigned female at birth, raised and competed as a female before there was any intervention because, well, I dunno a variety of speculative reasons. She hasn't won anything since 2018 so I'm not sure she's stopping other people much these days.

CS wasn't a high school athlete as far as I know. They didn't start competing until age 17. These days? What about all the past days when their unfair advantage meant women lost out?

CS's 800m PB is 1:54:25, 4th on the women’s all-time list. So only 3 women have ever run faster. In 2023 alone, 3,202 men have run faster.

Every so often in this thread you come up with something that is batshit crazy and reveals how little your position is grounded in feminism. This is exhibit number four or five on that score. Don't you have a background in education? Have you never spent five minutes observing the dynamics of a school playground?

It's not feminism to allow men into the female category because it's asserted they were socialised as girls. It's terrible for the athletes involved that their condition went undiagnosed and that sports organisations didn't take action sooner, which has made things worse. If this is your argument though you might as well argue for inclusion on the basis of poverty or lack of opportunity. We all know girls drop out of sports after age 11, and that women's sports struggles to attract funding. How do you think any of this is helped by including males in the female category?

They've faced the same difficulties as women so they should be allowed to run in the female category as reward? This is a nonsensical argument that punishes actually women.

Have you ever read anything written by a female athlete striving for success or recognition in a male-dominated or masculine-coded sport?

Yes. I haven't seen any of them campaigning for dsd athletes to be included.

Where's your empathy for those who lost out on Olympic medals to dsd athletes? Or for the African women who will lose out on scholarships, funding, sponsors, and podium places?

 

[winjim]

I don't know about the regularity of African/South American pregnancy scans. Do you?

As for a different category, sure, that might be the way forward. But to me it marginalises an already niche group.

This really isn't an easy issue to solve, and I won't pretend to have any answers.

We don't screen antenatally for DSDs. Some might not even present until puberty or later.

https://www.sciencealert.com/remote-town-in-the-dominican-republic-some-girls-turn-into-boys

 

[Deleted member 159]

Do you feel threatened by trans men 'stealing' all your rights too?

They don't infringe mens rights, men don't put up with it.

 

[AndyRM]

CS wasn't a high school athlete as far as I know. They didn't start competing until age 17. These days? What about all the past days when their unfair advantage meant women lost out?

I'm limiting my reply to this - but if she was at junior competitions at 17, then she probably was still in high school.

I find this thread interesting, and I'm learning a lot from it. I suppose where I'm at right now is that I feel an athlete being discriminated against because they have an unusually high level of whatever chemical (perhaps not the right word) is in their body seems a bit harsh.

 

[monkers]

They don't infringe mens rights, men don't put up with it.

Andy doing his impersonation of a 'real man'- (swoon). 🤣

 

[AuroraSaab]

I don't know about the regularity of African/South American pregnancy scans. Do you?

I am pretty sure paediatric health care in most of Africa falls below European standards. How do you account for most dsd athletes being African? The same dsd is found in Europeans.
I know Paula Ratcliffe expressed concern that some countries might seek out dsd athletes specifically to gain advantage.

As for a different category, sure, that might be the way forward. But to me it marginalises an already niche group. This really isn't an easy issue to solve, and I won't pretend to have any answers.

It's an unfortunate situation for all concerned. The sports authorities have been far too slow to address it, which was the case with doping too.

We don't screen antenatally for DSDs. Some might not even present until puberty or later.

https://www.sciencealert.com/remote-town-in-the-dominican-republic-some-girls-turn-into-boys

But more likely to be spotted if there is a scan? And atypical genitals more likely to be spotted and investigated at a hospital birth than an unattended home birth? And obviously, when puberty arrives and it is more apparent then more likely to be referred for tests in the US and Europe than in Africa and South America surely? Dsd athletes are massively overrepresented in elite level running in African countries.

 

[Deleted member 159]

I'm limiting my reply to this - but if she was at junior competitions at 17, then she probably was still in high school.

I find this thread interesting, and I'm learning a lot from it. I suppose where I'm at right now is that I feel an athlete being discriminated against because they have an unusually high level of whatever chemical (perhaps not the right word) is in their body seems a bit harsh.

The biggest athletic bonus is having a Y chromosome. Along with elevated levels of testosterone.

Comes with it, more muscular physique, enlarged lungs, heart, throat to accept more air.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I find this thread interesting, and I'm learning a lot from it. I suppose where I'm at right now is that I feel an athlete being discriminated against because they have an unusually high level of whatever chemical (perhaps not the right word) is in their body seems a bit harsh.

That's the point though. They have normal levels for men because 5 ARD athletes are men with a dsd not women with high testosterone. I agree it's an awful situation for them. Sports is a way of out of poverty for many African athletes, especially scholarships, and letting this situation develop has been very detrimental to all.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Categories affirmed

Trans women shall not compete in women's sport☑️

Trans women shall not enter any private women spaces ☑️

DSD shall not compete in women's sports unless under 2.5mmol ☑️


What shall we chat about now

 

[Unkraut]

How do you feel about disabled and disfigured people? Do you feel compelled to comment?

A bit more analogous would be someone who self ID'd as disabled then under the influence of handicapactivists had surgery to bring their body into line with their self perception. Had a limb removed.

You wouldn't have the same sympathy for such an individual as you would for someone genuinely handicapped.

There is an element of disanalogy here, but my attitude would be more you have been lied to by the activists. The tragedy of this would be if the person realises this and there is no way back to their former healthy condition.

 

[Milzy]

A bit more analogous would be someone who self ID'd as disabled then under the influence of handicapactivists had surgery to bring their body into line with their self perception. Had a limb removed.

You wouldn't have the same sympathy for such an individual as you would for someone genuinely handicapped.

There is an element of disanalogy here, but my attitude would be more you have been lied to by the activists. The tragedy of this would be if the person realises this and there is no way back to their former healthy condition.

Great example. It’s the same kind of thing but a different kind of mental illness.

 

[AndyRM]

Great example. It’s the same kind of thing but a different kind of mental illness.

Not really. Being trans is not a sign of being mentally ill.