Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

Yes.

You think a movement set up to agitate for the rights of black people should also agitate for the rights of white people, because it would be wrong to exclude them? Should gay people have to campaign for the rights of straight people, or are they allowed a movement just to themselves?

Trevor Huddlestone marching beside Nelson Mandela is a very different thing from making the African black civil rights movement include the welfare of white people in their campaign.

You'll go nuts when you hear about how The Dog's Trust don't bother with cats then.

 

[matticus]

"Worth noting that radical feminist are not trans excluding. Their feminism includes women, however they identify. It just doesn't include men."

But if you insist, as I understand you to do, that transwomen are men the surely you are trans excluding

I'm reluctant to spoil this comprehension test that A.S. has set, but;
Trans-men are not being excluded [in the context of the quote above!]

Or to read between the lines; this is not part of suppression, or dislike of trans- people in general.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Just to be clear, are you referring to all trans-women (so called), whatever transition procedures they might or might not have undergone?

Radical feminism excludes all males, regardless of how they identify. Cosmetic changes don't change your sex so, regardless, all men are excluded. Some liberal feminists will include transwomen. You would have to ask them individually whether cosmetic changes affect their view.

Or to read between the lines; this is not part of suppression, or dislike of trans- people in general.

Feminists very much include transmen in their feminism. I don't know of any that exclude them, even if they would want to be excluded, and of course there's huge moral support for girls/women who have detransitioned. In fact it's a bit of a concern that there will always be women there for female detransitioners to fall back on, whereas for male detransitioners there isn't the same compassion about their situation from other men.

Sarah Vaci is an artist doing 100 portraits of detransitioned women:

https://www.sarahvaci.com/metamorphosis100detransitionproject

Laura Dodsworth is a photographer with a project on detransitioning women:

https://www.lauradodsworth.com/salamander

I don't see anything much on social media to support boys and men who regret their transition, other than from women.

 

[newfhouse]

You think a movement set up to agitate for the rights of black people should also agitate for the rights of white people, because it would be wrong to exclude them? Should gay people have to campaign for the rights of straight people, or are they allowed a movement just to themselves?

Trevor Huddlestone marching beside Nelson Mandela is a very different thing from making the African black civil rights movement include the welfare of white people in their campaign.

You'll go nuts when you hear about how The Dog's Trust don't bother with cats then.

Sorry, I missed your context of black people being the subject rather than the membership of the campaign group.

 

[Ian H]

Radical feminism excludes all males, regardless of how they identify. Cosmetic changes don't change your sex so, regardless, all men are excluded. Some liberal feminists will include transwomen. You would have to ask them individually whether cosmetic changes affect their view.



Feminists very much include transmen in their feminism. I don't know of any that exclude them, even if they would want to be excluded, and of course there's huge moral support for girls/women who have detransitioned. In fact it's a bit of a concern that there will always be women there for female detransitioners to fall back on, whereas for male detransitioners there isn't the same compassion about their situation from other men.

Sarah Vaci is an artist doing 100 portraits of detransitioned women:

https://www.sarahvaci.com/metamorphosis100detransitionproject

Laura Dodsworth is a photographer with a project on detransitioning women:

https://www.lauradodsworth.com/salamander

I don't see anything much on social media to support boys and men who regret their transition, other than from women.

What would 'cosmetic' include or exclude? Full reassignment surgery for instance?

 

[AuroraSaab]

All sex reassignment surgery is cosmetic. It doesn't change your sex.

 

[Ian H]

All sex reassignment surgery is cosmetic. It doesn't change your sex.

So anyone who calls themselves a trans-man or trans-woman is deluding themselves and others.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Radical feminism excludes all males, regardless of how they identify. Cosmetic changes don't change your sex so, regardless, all men are excluded. Some liberal feminists will include transwomen. You would have to ask them individually whether cosmetic changes affect their view.

As a man of feminist views I'm with the liberal wing.

I pointed out pages back that there's an old legal joke about property lawyers arguing from different premises.

 

[AuroraSaab]

So anyone who calls themselves a trans-man or trans-woman is deluding themselves and others.

If someone says they have changed their sex and are now the other sex, that would be incorrect, surely. You can call yourself anything you like I suppose, but it's unrealistic to demand other people validate that identity when it's an empirical fact that you are not that thing.

Is Rachel Dolezal black? Is she deluding herself that she is black? Should we we call her a black woman or not?

 

[AuroraSaab]

As a man of feminist views I'm with the liberal wing.

It's easy to be kind when that kindness comes at other people's expense.

 

[newfhouse]

Is Rachel Dolezal black? Is she deluding herself that she is black? Should we we call her a black woman or not?

As a general point rather than in this specific case, is being black binary in your view? If not, how does it relate to your belief about immutable sex?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Well, you can be mixed race too, so race isn't a binary. I think we would all agree that racial discrimination and oppression occurs though and a white person identifying into the oppressed group would be considered wrong. Why does that not apply to sex?

 

[multitool]

Fukit...


View: https://youtu.be/YOvbUu0OlbQ



Just happened upon Prof John Curtice et al. survey of British attitudes 2016.

Contrary to the completely unevidenced claim made on this thread that "the majority of women don't want trans women in women's spaces" here is one piece of survey data on attitudes to TW in women's toilets (screenshotted, because some people don't do detail).

Turns out only 13% of women were uncomfortable sharing toilets with transwomen .

The moral of the story, don't accept unevidenced claims, however authoritatively they are asserted.

I've also been reading the summarised findings of the investigations by the Scottish Parliament that informed their decision to pursue GRC reform. It's about 15 pages so far, far too long for some but I'll post a link later.

 

[Ian H]

If someone says they have changed their sex and are now the other sex, that would be incorrect, surely. You can call yourself anything you like I suppose, but it's unrealistic to demand other people validate that identity when it's an empirical fact that you are not that thing.

The 'empirical fact' is that this is your view. Other people seem to have different views cogently argued - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_woman
I'm concerned by the apparent overt hostility towards trans women, when they seem to be disproportionately the subject of violence - https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiew...d-in-2021-deadliest-year-since-records-began/
Do you think the hostility and the violence are linked?
What strategies might be followed to reduce this violence and hostility?

Is Rachel Dolezal black? Is she deluding herself that she is black? Should we we call her a black woman or not?

I have no idea. Irrelevant deflection?

 

[multitool]

The one thing the current Scottish GRC row has allowed is for the anti-trans lobby to associate, or indeed conflate, trans women with dangerous perverted deviants.

Whether unwittingly or not (Im going to go with unwittingly) , AS has done this in this thread by posting the same few tired examples of trans sex offenders in the hope that this association grows stronger in the audience's mind. It's an identical tactic used by islamophobes who repeatedly post up news items on Muslim paedophile groomers. We should not be surprised by this given the links between anti-trans activists and fascist groups like the Proud Boys. This has already been alluded to earlier in this thread by theclaud in her icily dry reference to Posie Parker always being surprised to be surrounded by the far-right.

I still go back to that post for a laugh, now and then 🤭