Gender again. Sorry!

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It was a genuine question, so if you say you didn't say it, you didn't.

I've lost track of your take, but you appear to be supporting what we could call the 'pro trans' side.

I can tell you are getting a bit weary with all this, but you might care to outline, shortly, your position, particularly in relation to the man who simply says he's a woman.

Or as you put it, if Robert and Simon say they are now Roberta and Simone.

Which, I might add, would be a very odd couple indeed.

I am pro trans in the sense that I support the right of trans people, whether male/female or the other direction, to be treated as members of their acquired gender.

You're quite right I'm weary of the hamster wheel nature of the debate on this thread.

It's run its course and I don't think, philosophically, either view has anything new to add.

As to Roberta/Simone and my take how folks embark on the trans journey I suspect it's already in the posts above. I would however be a massive ask to tell you to go back and find it yourself.

I'll try and condense it into a few paragraphs but it might be later and not necessarily today.

But, just for a frame of reference, Self ID won't be part of it; Red Herring in a procedural backwater.
 
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Pale Rider

Veteran
I am pro trans in the sense that I support the right of trans people, whether male/female or the other direction, to be treated as members of their acquired gender.

You're quite right I'm weary of the hamster wheel nature of the debate on this thread.

It's run its course and I don't think, philosophically, either view has anything new to add.

As to Roberta/Simone and my take how folks embark on the trans journey I suspect it's already in the posts above. I would however be a massive ask to tell you to go back and find it yourself.

I'll try and condense it into a few paragraphs but it might be later and not necessarily today.

But, just for a frame of reference, Self ID won't be part of it; Red Herring.

More than fair.

Nobody wants to say. They just want to evade the details by saying it's nuanced and complicated. Are transwomen always to be treated as women, or only sometimes? When? And if not, why not? I can't answer because it's nuanced and complicated.

I think there's a lot in that, and not just in this thread.

A number of posters tend to confine themselves to one line responses, often snipes at another member, rather than state their case plainly.

I suspect it's the fear of poking their head above the parapet.
 

classic33

Senior Member
Nobody wants to say. They just want to evade the details by saying it's nuanced and complicated. Are transwomen always to be treated as women, or only sometimes? When? And if not, why not? I can't answer because it's nuanced and complicated.
What does the law* say, because our viewpoints don't really count for much if the law says otherwise.

*The law as you'd be prosecuted under in the UK(including regional variations), not what any advisory groups or people who think they can write the law to suit themselves say.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
The law says people are the sex stated on their birth certificate. The law also says this, as an ordinary citizen / member of the public, if you perceive otherwise, it's none of your business.

That's as complicated and as nuanced as it needs to be.
 

CXRAndy

Guru
The law says people are the sex stated on their birth certificate. The law also says this, as an ordinary citizen / member of the public, if you perceive otherwise, it's none of your business.

That's as complicated and as nuanced as it needs to be.

The court of public opinion has more power.
 
What does the law* say, because our viewpoints don't really count for much if the law says otherwise.

It says people can be excluded from certain spaces and services, even if it's based on race, age, sex, and so on, if it's a proportionate response to a legitimate aim. Not unreasonable, and all that most people are asking for in terms of women's single sex spaces and services. Here we are back at the Equality Act, going over the same stuff for the umpteenth time.
 

classic33

Senior Member
It says people can be excluded from certain spaces and services, even if it's based on race, age, sex, and so on, if it's a proportionate response to a legitimate aim. Not unreasonable, and all that most people are asking for in terms of women's single sex spaces and services. Here we are back at the Equality Act, going over the same stuff for the umpteenth time.
Doesn't even start to answer the question you asked.
"Are transwomen always to be treated as women, or only sometimes? When? And if not, why not?"

You don't want to even consider the Equalities Act, if it doesn't meet with what you want.
 
So @Pale Rider asked what my thoughts were on trans women with a particular focus on a man who simply says he's a woman. That's not actually realistic and I've gone further to describe what is a real life scenario.

Scenario is I've taken a female name, let's be consistent and use Simone, donned women's clothing and left the house.

I'm not well built, slighter then many women. Were I to enter a women's toilet then provided I was clean shaven, right now though I've a full beard, and use the cubicle properly and discreetly I'd probably not ring an alarm. A gym or swimming change area less so, though if I used a cubicle I might get away.

Obvs, being indiscreet, even short of literal willy waving, might well contravene rules/laws and I'd rightly be unceremoniously ejected and maybe prosecuted. The laws/rules are there for a reason. A natal woman outraging decency though would be in trouble to same degree.

I've limited sympathy with somebody trying it that way. If you're genuine there's a well trodden path. No heed to mix yourself up with mischief makers or whatever.

It not what happens when people transition. Neither is it what the stalled Scottish Self ID law, or that promised in the May era for England and Wales envisaged.

Medical/psychological advice would likely be taken. There's guidance and books galore on how to do it properly.

I witnessed one man do it for their entire journey. Early sixties, recently widowed. Apparently he was gender incongruent in youth but with no realistic means of pursuing it in the sixties he packed it away, married had kids etc and looked/behaved like any other male Senior Civil Servant.

Hair was allowed to go long. At some stage hormone treatment was embarked upon so breasts formed but to be honest he looked like a man in late middle age who'd let himself 'go to seed'. Still used the men's facilities and male name. At some point, it was accidental as a result of someone else's not following the signs and being flippant during a proper discussion per the meeting agenda on legal aspects of trans process, he blurted out that he was trans.

They took themselves out of circulation for a while and returned the following spring using a female name dressing as a woman. At about that point they used the female facilities - to which nobody objected. A further lengthy absence ensued while surgery took place. Didn't wait for the NHS - paid for it.

To my mind Heather passed as an older woman. Mabe a bit Alastair Sim as Lady Bracknell but not obvious by any manner of means.

This was twenty or so years ago. More recently a lad who my son has been mates with since toddlers has embarked on the same journey. His incongruence was known/evident pre teens. Currently at the 'on hormones' stage and has adopted an androgynous name. Dressed that way for years!!
 
If someone wants to wear clothing and hair styles stereotypical of the opposite sex, they should be able to do so regardless of how they look. They shouldn't have to 'pass' as women or men to do so. There are many men with genuine body dysphoria who do not pass, whilst there are men for whom the clothes etc are a fetish and who do pass.

This isn't about how someone looks, it's about single sex spaces and services. It would be madness to base access to these things on how someone looked, or even what their motivation to look like that is, as that is completely subjective. Others may not share your perception.
 
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