Gender again. Sorry!

[CXRAndy]

I assume you're referring to the FC Dallas U15 side beating the US Ladies team in a kickabout? Or is there something else?

This website has collated 2016 results of high school boys results compared to Olympic women's finals in athletics and swimming. In just about every event, the boys beat Olympic finalist resoundingly.

Trans should not be allowed to enter any women's sport

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

 

[AndyRM]

This website has collated 2016 results of high school boys results compared to Olympic women's finals in athletics and swimming. In just about every event, the boys beat Olympic finalist resoundingly.

Trans should not be allowed to enter any women's sport

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Ah. The ability, an there's the rub. They haven't done it in actual competition.

 

[CXRAndy]

Ah. The ability, an there's the rub. They haven't done it in actual competition.

The boys results were in their own competitions. Those results are better than women who competed in the finals of each event in the 2016 Olympics.

It's clear as mud, boys already have the physical attributes to beat Olympic level women. Men who trans carry all the benefits and can easily beat top class women in virtually all types of events

 

[AndyRM]

The boys results were in their own competitions. Those results are better than women who competed in the finals of each event in the 2016 Olympics.

It's clear as mud, boys already have the physical attributes to beat Olympic level women. Men who trans carry all the benefits and can easily beat top class women in virtually all types of events

It really isn't IMO. There are all kinds of factors when it comes to body development, conditioning, naturally occurring chemical levels, stages of maturity.

It's a murky but interesting area. You want to stick to your binary definitions? Go ahead.

 

[Ian H]

It's clear as mud

 

[Bromptonaut]

Exactly, criminals are using it as a mitigation rouse to lesser punishment, access or belief in getting access into women's space/prison.

It clearly shows the whole idea of being able to self identify, is a mockery.

For the genuine, disphoria sufferers, destroys their case.

If male offenders think turning up at court in a dress and taking a female name will automatically give them a short spell in a women's gaol they're ill advised and or deluded. Judges are not fools and, even in a liberal self ID regime, where they serve time is subject to an assessment of facts, risks etc.

In a rational world this stuff has no bearing on self ID for people with genuine gender incongruence.

Only in the irrational world inhabited by yourself and, unfortunately, too many people in HMG, does the action of manipulative criminals bear on what happens in the rest of society.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It really isn't IMO. There are all kinds of factors when it comes to body development, conditioning, naturally occurring chemical levels, stages of development.

It's a murky but interesting area. You want to stick to your binary definitions? Go ahead.

There are all sorts of differences between individual athletes, but taken overall men do better than women in all events that require strength and explosive power. Only on ultra endurance events do women equal or do better, because overall fitness and mental toughness are then more significant.

https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

"Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)

The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times".

2017 results comparison between men and women. Doesn't include under 18 boys.

It might turn out that cricket ends up having it's Lia Thomas moment at the T20 and follows others sports in protecting the women's category.

 

[AuroraSaab]

In a rational world this stuff has no bearing on self ID for people with genuine gender incongruence.

It has bearing for everybody else because self ID is just that. It doesn't require anybody else's opinion as to whether the person genuinely has gender incongruence or not. Under self ID Sophie the child abuse image collector is as valid a woman as someone with longstanding body dysphoria.

Only in the irrational world inhabited by yourself and, unfortunately, too many people in HMG, does the action of manipulative criminals bear on what happens in the rest of society.

Who are you to say they are a manipulative criminal and not simply a woman criminal? You can't have it both ways; transwomen are either all women, even the sex offenders, or none of them are.

When I said 'Why can't transwomen go in the men's toilets with you, Bromptonaut?' You said:

Because they are women.
Next?

Well, Sophie the child abuse image fan is a woman by your metric and you would have them be in women's single sex spaces.

It's simply not good enough to say Transwomen are women..... except for those ones, obviously...I didn't mean them...

 

[multitool]

OK, so you want this offender having free access to little boys.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Ah. The ability, an there's the rub. They haven't done it in actual competition.

There are genuine and important battles to be fought in protecting the rights of trans women, and not demonising them, but this is not one of them. If those High School boys had had the training and conditioning benefits that the women Olympic athletes had had then the results would probably have been much more in favour of the boys’ results. The charts showing the difference in performance of those men and women who have done it in actual top level competition would be even more stark.

This particular argument about trans women competing in some sports just muddies the water further than it needs to be and is not as important as the bigger problems caused by much of the anti-trans bigotry.

 

[CXRAndy]

When you've got smart idiots like Neil Tyson Degrasse arguing that we need a spectrum of categories in sports to equalise the competition.

Competitors have to level up by taking hormones to make competition more equal.

That's called doping, which is why WADA and other anti doping organizations were created

I'll add Degrasse to my comedy watchlist




View: https://youtu.be/h_ETEWQMArQ?si=zByvkTkUtjQqcmuK

 

[AuroraSaab]

OK, so you want this offender having free access to little boys.

This offender would be less likely to assault someone in the male changing room or toilets than in the women's. Under self ID they could use either, depending on what they wished to identify as on that particular day. I'd like to see sex offenders banned from anywhere that involved being near people in vulnerable states of undress whether it's swimming baths, shop changing rooms, or private gyms.

 

[multitool]

This offender would be less likely to assault someone in the male changing room or toilets than in the women's. Under self ID they could use either, depending on what they wished to identify as on that particular day. I'd like to see sex offenders banned from anywhere that involved being near people in vulnerable states of undress whether it's swimming baths, shop changing rooms, or private gyms.

Firstly, on what basis are you saying this offender I'd more likely to attack females than males.

Secondly, if you think that "under Self ID" people can change their gender daily, on a whim, you haven't understood self ID, which is odd given that you have recently seen what such a law looks like in Scotland.

 

[icowden]

Secondly, if you think that "under Self ID" people can change their gender daily, on a whim, you haven't understood self ID, which is odd given that you have recently seen what such a law looks like in Scotland.

IIRC there have been long and protracted discussions. Waking up tomorrow and saying I am a woman and I demand to be treated as such is the holy grail of self-ID. For the purposes of equality law no piece of paper is required to say that you *are* a woman. If you say you are, then you are. That is self-ID.

That is different from legal gender recognition which requires a piece of paper.

Where I actually agree with you, is that in the vast majority of places I don't think it matters. If you decide tomorrow that your name is Stella and you go out to a restaurant wearing a cocktail dress, and use the ladies loos, it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter if your name is bob, you have a shaven head and skull tattoos on both arms. What matters is whether you are going in there to use the loo, washing your hands and then leaving, or whether you are going in there heaving out your junk and waving it around in the faces of the other occupants of the toilet.

As you and @monkers have pointed out previously, the protection in toilets is legal. If an offence is being committed and offence is being committed whether it's in the ladies or the men's.

The issue is one of custom and the impact on other users. Personally I would not want to interpose myself into a space where it makes other people uncomfortable. I have used ladies loos on a matter of principle when my daughters were little because it tended to be where the baby change mat was.

A secondary issue of course is for those people who are genuinely trans, and likely therefore to feel uncomfortable in either bathroom.

Rolling back from the digression, under the principle of self-ID (not legal gender recognition), a good question would be "what are the issues (if any) that this represents?"

Without legal recognition, many of the protections that women enjoy remain in place. With legal recognition some of those become contentious IMHO.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Firstly, on what basis are you saying this offender I'd more likely to attack females than males.

Both crime surveys and prosecutions show that women and girls are more likely to be the victim of sexual offences than males. Females are the victims in 80% plus of UK prosecutions.

Most males are attracted to women not men so why would they be just as likely to attack a male? Most obviously though, no offender assaults someone of similar physical size or who they cannot intimidate into submission. That is obviously easier with women than with men. Most sexual assaults on males include drugs or alcohol.

Secondly, if you think that "under Self ID" people can change their gender daily, on a whim, you haven't understood self ID, which is odd given that you have recently seen what such a law looks like in Scotland.

If self ID were passed on what basis would anyone like Sophie Louise Carter be refused entry to say the swimming baths changing rooms? Even if they hadn't legally got a cert it would become difficult for providers to turn them away.

Who are you to say this person is acting on a whim anyway? In what way is Sophie Louise Carter not a woman, but Eddie Izzard is? Because one has made a bit more effort?

Btw, the Scots dismissed the ammendment that would have stopped sex offenders getting a certificate, so there would be no bar on the above offender getting their sex and name legally changed. And it would be illegal for anyone to tell anybody what their previous name was.