Gender again. Sorry!

[newfhouse]

Most males are attracted to women not men so why would they be just as likely to attack a male?

Genuine question: is violence often based on sexual attraction or is it usually more complicated than that?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Where I actually agree with you, is that in the vast majority of places I don't think it matters.

Correct, it mostly doesn't matter.

If you decide tomorrow that your name is Stella and you go out to a restaurant wearing a cocktail dress, and use the ladies loos, it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter if your name is bob, you have a shaven head and skull tattoos on both arms.

It matters to plenty of women and girls, because it's not just an issue of safety, but privacy and dignity.

What I have increasingly realised in this thread is that men on here really seem to think that access to women's spaces is a reward for men who have made an effort with personal grooming.

They are still men. No amount of different clothing or hairstyle changes that fact. Whether other men perceive them as women because of how they look is irrelevant. Women's spaces aren't rewards for men who succeed at looking feminine or make an effort long term.

 

[Ian H]

What I have increasingly realised in this thread is that men on here really seem to think that access to women's spaces is a reward for men who have made an effort with personal grooming.

I expect that the men on here (and the women) all make an effort with their personal grooming.

 

[Deleted member 159]

What I have increasingly realised in this thread is that men on here really seem to think that access to women's spaces is a reward for men who have made an effort with personal grooming.

I dont agree with that.

Women's loos are women only, no trans, no GR certified, no weekend warrior cross dresser.

Same goes for all dedicated female places

 

[icowden]

It matters to plenty of women and girls, because it's not just an issue of safety, but privacy and dignity.

Which is why I want on to say it's about custom and ensuring that people are not made uncomfortable.

They are still men. No amount of different clothing or hairstyle changes that fact. Whether other men perceive them as women because of how they look is irrelevant. Women's spaces aren't rewards for men who succeed at looking feminine or make an effort long term.

I think the corollary of that is that this falls down a bit in that you do get women who look very manly, so the whole "test" if you like is based on perception and therefore to a degree - prejudice. Does this person "look" like they should be in here? We can enforce laws and address bad behaviour regardless of gender. That said, I do understand that there is one key difference which is the perception that in the men's if someone is being inappropriate, they are in an environment which is visited by the stronger and bigger members of society generally speaking, whereas in the ladies it is more likely that they will encounter someone bigger and stronger, thus the perception of safety is very differently skewed.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Which is why I want on to say it's about custom and ensuring that people are not made uncomfortable.

Its beyond custom, I think its down to females needing their privacy away from men.

 

[icowden]

Women's loos are women only, no trans, no GR certified, no weekend warrior cross dresser.

But you might as well say that the bar area is only for people aged 25 and over, but not carry out ID checks. It's unenforceable unless you are going to have a DNA check to get through the door.

 

[Deleted member 159]

But you might as well say that the bar area is only for people aged 25 and over, but not carry out ID checks. It's unenforceable unless you are going to have a DNA check to get through the door.

There will always be men who ignore protocol, cant do much practically. But if you make it law that women have their own places, then with the odd enforcement, trans will not casually enter women's loos etc.

I understand all new toilet facility upgrades and new builds must have separate men and women loos. I hope those few establishments that have gone unisex loos will revert back- don't know if they will be legally obligated. Public pressure through complaint will bring about the reversal

 

[AuroraSaab]

Genuine question: is violence often based on sexual attraction or is it usually more complicated than that?

Sexual offending is directed largely by sexual orientation surely, though less of a driver for child abusers I believe, where specific ages are more of a factor. Not necessarily just attraction as such, but sexual desire and the opportunity to exert power over someone. And the thrill of having the physical power to be able to do so.

 

[newfhouse]

with the odd enforcement

Page 547 and you’re still advocating this.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Which is why I want on to say it's about custom and ensuring that people are not made uncomfortable.

Any male in women's spaces can make women and girls uncomfortable, whether they can pass as women or not.

I think the corollary of that is that this falls down a bit in that you do get women who look very manly, so the whole "test" if you like is based on perception and therefore to a degree - prejudice. Does this person "look" like they should be in here? We can enforce laws and address bad behaviour regardless of gender.

I have never seen a woman challenged in toilets or changing rooms for not looking feminine enough. Even if they were challenged it would take very little to establish that they were female. There has always been an understanding that if you were in women's spaces you were female; no longer guaranteed to be the case.

But you might as well say that the bar area is only for people aged 25 and over, but not carry out ID checks. It's unenforceable unless you are going to have a DNA check to get through the door.

It relies on the social contract, just like not going through red lights, not using disabled toilets, and many other things does. It doesn't usually require a dna check to see that someone is male but the relentless pushing for access to female spaces has made it increasingly difficult for women to speak out when they are uncomfortable with males in their spaces.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Page 547 and you’re still advocating this.

View attachment 4506

How else are you going to ensure compliance. Rely on the good nature of all men?

 

[newfhouse]

Even if they were challenged it would take very little to establish that they were female.

What would it take? Who would do the checking?

 

[Deleted member 159]

What would it take? Who would do the checking?

I would suspect, just by asking someone to clarify, taking them aside and delaying the access would be sufficient in the vast majority of cases.

 

[newfhouse]

I would suspect, just by asking someone to clarify, taking them aside and delaying the access would be sufficient in the vast majority of cases.

Who would do the asking and delaying? How would they decide pass or fail?