Gender again. Sorry!

[Deleted member 159]

How did you manage such a lack of understanding? Did you not read? Where is the emotional intelligence?

"When you’re emotionally intelligent, you can more easily identify your emotional triggers and better align your values with your actions. More importantly, you can begin to identify other people’s emotional triggers"

Triggers

 

[AndyRM]

"When you’re emotionally intelligent, you can more easily identify your emotional triggers and better align your values with your actions. More importantly, you can begin to identify other people’s emotional triggers"

Triggers

View attachment 4697

Count yourself thankful that you've never suffered any mental ill-health.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Count yourself thankful that you've never suffered any mental ill-health.

Get on your bike, blows away the blues

 

[AndyRM]

Get on your bike, blows away the blues

A common misconception, but not one I'm surprised you'd think helps.

 

[Rusty Nails]

A common misconception, but not one I'm surprised you'd think helps.

You cannot play chess with a pigeon.

 

[AuroraSaab]

How did you manage such a lack of understanding? Did you not read? Where is the emotional intelligence?

You said another poster was wrong for saying the person in your link was someone with a genetic condition from birth ie. a dsd/intersex condition. They aren't wrong. Perhaps you might admit your error to them.

Once again though you are trying to deliberately muddy the waters of this discussion by lumping those suffering from a genetic medical condition and those who make a metaphysical claim to be the opposite sex in together. 'Some people are incorrectly sexed at birth and deserve sympathy therefore you should tolerate men who weren't incorrectly sexed at birth in women's spaces' (which is basically where your request for 'accommodating difference' goes) is not a viable argument. You've tried it previously with dsd athletes and sports. It's falling back on the emotive special pleading that ignores women's feelings but elevates men's feelings.

Stop appropriating the challenges faced by a tiny number of people with a medical condition from birth, which can often have serious health implications, to leverage sympathy for a group that largely consists of adult men who seek to impinge on women's single sex spaces.

I suppose at least it's an admittance that you've just retreated to that bastion of irrational argument: Be Kind and It's my human right to have what I want.

 

[Milzy]

TBF Milzy isn't nearly so nasty.
Just a bit..
...gullible perhaps.??

They often seem to be happy enough to review their position with an input of new intel'

I’m not cult minded. I’ll happily discuss anything to get to the truth in a civilised manner. Change my mind.

 

[Bromptonaut]

"When you’re emotionally intelligent, you can more easily identify your emotional triggers and better align your values with your actions. More importantly, you can begin to identify other people’s emotional triggers"

Triggers

View attachment 4697

You are a complete furking daffodil on here for nobody's benefit but your own...

 

[monkers]

You said another poster was wrong for saying the person in your link was someone with a genetic condition from birth ie. a dsd/intersex condition. They aren't wrong. Perhaps you might admit your error to them.

Once again though you are trying to deliberately muddy the waters of this discussion by lumping those suffering from a genetic medical condition and those who make a metaphysical claim to be the opposite sex in together. 'Some people are incorrectly sexed at birth and deserve sympathy therefore you should tolerate men who weren't incorrectly sexed at birth in women's spaces' (which is basically where your request for 'accommodating difference' goes) is not a viable argument. You've tried it previously with dsd athletes and sports. It's falling back on the emotive special pleading that ignores women's feelings but elevates men's feelings.

Stop appropriating the challenges faced by a tiny number of people with a medical condition from birth, which can often have serious health implications, to leverage sympathy for a group that largely consists of adult men who seek to impinge on women's single sex spaces.

I suppose at least it's an admittance that you've just retreated to that bastion of irrational argument: Be Kind and It's my human right to have what I want.

You are both making elementary errors. Not that it is surprising that you do. Both of you have the habit of making pronouncements concerning other people with emotional detachment.

I have made no error. The medical profession do not speak of 'intersex conditions' or 'medical conditions'. Lyss is a person with a DSD. The emphasis here is on 'person'. Andy and you are more focussed on a rush to label a person rather than to apply a modicum of emotional intelligence and take a walk in their shoes.

In your rush to post you say in one breath that the exact variation in not specified, and in the next breath are talking about ambiguous genitalia. Had you taken the trouble to read the linked article and the one that you linked to, you will learn that Lyss has said that her external genitals are not ambiguous. Neither the medical profession or the parents had been 'ignorant'. Lyss had thought to have had a hernia when eleven months old. It was then that it was discovered that Lyss was a person with a DSD.

Lyss is a person with a DSD; additionally she is trans person. One thing she talks about in her experiences is the difference in the way that she is treated by different genders - women tending to one perspective and men to another.

 

[multitool]

You are a complete furking daffodil on here for nobody's benefit but your own...

It's not even for his own benefit.

All he is doing is doubling down on his own stupidity.

 

[Deleted member 159]

 

[AndyRM]

Liar Liar is a great film. What relevance it has here I have no idea.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I have made no error. The medical profession do not speak of 'intersex conditions' or 'medical conditions'. Lyss is a person with a DSD. The emphasis here is on 'person'. Andy and you are more focussed on a rush to label a person rather than to apply a modicum of emotional intelligence and take a walk in their shoes.

That's like saying sickle cell anemia isn't a medical condition and that doctors only speak of 'a person with sickle cell anemia'. Everybody with x genetic condition is 'a person with x'. It's still a medical condition. This is hair splitting to again attempt to conflate those with medical conditions with those who have a metaphysical belief about themselves.

In your rush to post you say in one breath that the exact variation in not specified, and in the next breath are talking about ambiguous genitalia. Had you taken the trouble to read the linked article and the one that you linked to, you will learn that Lyss has said that her external genitals are not ambiguous.

They say they are genetically male with internal, undescended testes and at 11 months appeared as a 'typical baby girl' - which presumably means no obvious male genitalia, despite being male. Sounds a bit like you are reducing being a woman to having a vagina - oh, dear, surely this is the biological essentialism that you so often whine about.

Neither the medical profession or the parents had been 'ignorant'. Lyss had thought to have had a hernia when eleven months old. It was then that it was discovered that Lyss was a person with a DSD.

It doesn't say which dsd was diagnosed but to advise the parent not to tell the child and leave them to find out at puberty or later seems ignorant at best, if not cruel, and I very much doubt anywhere in the West would recommend it today. Many dsd's have additional risk factors like heart and kidney trouble, and infertility.

Lyss is a person with a DSD; additionally she is trans person. One thing she talks about in her experiences is the difference in the way that she is treated by different genders - women tending to one perspective and men to another.

Here's their website. They describe themselves as "I'm an intersex, queer, trauma informed, yogi, coach, and witch". Doesn't mention the word trans once, as far as I can see.
https://iamlimitlyss.com/about-us/

They do call themselves part of the LGB etc community, but nowhere have I seen them call themselves trans. Why would they? Having a dsd is a completely different thing to having a metaphysical belief about yourself.

Good for them though, they've worked through the trauma of having a dsd condition and are using that experience to build a career and help others.

 

[monkers]

I have made no error. The medical profession do not speak of 'intersex conditions' or 'medical conditions'. Lyss is a person with a DSD. The emphasis here is on 'person'. Andy and you are more focussed on a rush to label a person rather than to apply a modicum of emotional intelligence and take a walk in their shoes.

That's like saying sickle cell anemia isn't a medical condition and that doctors only speak of 'a person with sickle cell anemia'. Everybody with x genetic condition is 'a person with x'. It's still a medical condition. This is hair splitting to again attempt to conflate those with medical conditions with those who have a metaphysical belief about themselves.

Two things:

SCA is a serious illness that requires medical attention. DSDs are not an illness. Historically doctors sometimes were tempted to intervene early in some attempt to normalise DSDs - or as Lyss prefers to say, perform cosmetic surgery. That doesn't seem to be her own experience though. In her own case she had a medical condition (note correct usage here) initially suspected to be a hernia in the lower abdomen - I'd guess an inguinal hernia because a hernia at the site of the inguinal canal is a typical place to find an undescended testis.

You are often keen to talk about the dignity of women. Well all other people deserve their dignity too. If you are serious about affording dignity, then you'll need to be careful to use language that demonstrates your commitment to the dignity of all others. People who happen to have a DSD, such as Lyss, deserve to be spoken about in ways that do not just focus on what you perceive as an abnormality, but instead as a naturally occurring variation. DSDs are said to have about the same prevalence as natural red hair. If you happened to have red hair, and this was referred to as an abnormality, you'd probably get a bit pissed off by people implying it as such.

People may be typically cisgender, typically heterosexual etc etc; however the language occurring on this thread about abnormality and deviancy are indicators of intolerance or even bigotry. There is natural occurring variation in humankind including by way of embryology. Where there are less typical characteristics, I see variation, whereas others such as yourself see abnormality or deviancy.

 

[monkers]

In your rush to post you say in one breath that the exact variation in not specified, and in the next breath are talking about ambiguous genitalia. Had you taken the trouble to read the linked article and the one that you linked to, you will learn that Lyss has said that her external genitals are not ambiguous.

They say they are genetically male with internal, undescended testes and at 11 months appeared as a 'typical baby girl' - which presumably means no obvious male genitalia, despite being male. Sounds a bit like you are reducing being a woman to having a vagina - oh, dear, surely this is the biological essentialism that you so often whine about.

They used as a pronoun here. If you can use 'they' for an intersex person, then you can not make the case that this pronoun can not be used for a trans person ... and yet. Why?

You are using the same old tired tactics of twisting. I pointed out your error. Lyss does not say she has ambiguous genitalia. That is not me saying that she has a vagina therefore she is a woman. Beside which you are muddling the vocabulary of sex with the vocabulary of gender despite us being on page 582.

Do try to keep your point sensible.