Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

I don't think it says much about the quality of your arguments if the best you can offer is obsessive repostings of an out of context clip of KJK. Especially when you've platformed nonce adjacent cartoonists, and India 'Let's build a wall to keep the immigrants out' Willoughby.

That's a pathetic attempt to discredit this point by invoking completely different points.

I suppose its indicative of the dishonest nature of your debating techniques.

 

[AuroraSaab]

She doesn't want a separate women's competition. She doesn't want to win on the basis of being the best driver in a lesser series, she wants to win on her own terms, against all other drivers in the same class (of car and competition). Is that not her right?

The problem is solved by doing what other sports have done. Have a protected Womens class and an Open class for males, those who identify as non binary, and women who choose to compete in it. Bingo; your anecdotal friend doesn't have to compete in what they regard as a 'lesser' competition and can compete on their own terms.

As we've seen though, the Open category system is rejected by transactivists.

Your argument could be applied to other examples, like prizes for black authors, or awards that raise the profile of disabled individuals. The reason for these separate competitions isn't that black and disabled people need to be in a 'lesser' events, as you well know.

 

[Deleted member 159]

When you claim that a trans woman has a retained physical advantage over another woman in a frame of pool, it gets a bit embarrassing for women actually. Pool is not an elite sport; it's a pub game.

It's not the sport, it's the fact it's a women's division.

If the bloke wants to play pool, join the men, if there is no advantage in that particular sport.

Maybe that women don't have as much time to dedicate to their respective sport until they become an elite athlete.

 

[monkers]

The problem is solved by doing what other sports have done. Have a protected Womens class and an Open class for males, those who identify as non binary, and women who choose to compete in it. Bingo; your anecdotal friend doesn't have to compete in what they regard as a 'lesser' competition and can compete on their own terms.

This is quite mad. You say that gender identity does not exist on the one hand, but now on the other hand, a young woman who identifies with being female and woman should identify her gender as non-binary to be able to compete with men?

You can keep on with your men are always better than us, so we need special dispensation drivel all you like. Just don't expect other women to go along with it - we don't.

 

[AuroraSaab]

That's a pathetic attempt to discredit this point by invoking completely different points.

I suppose its indicative of the dishonest mature of your debating techniques.

Your debating technique is to re post a link you posted 5 months ago, from a man who is similarly obsessed with Kellie Jay Keen. If you're going to insist on the guilt-by-association thing, it's perfectly relevant that you yourself have routinely platformed people with views that are just as offensive.

 

[AuroraSaab]

This is quite mad. You say that gender identity does not exist on the one hand, but now on the other hand, a young woman who identifies with being female and woman should identify her gender as non-binary to be able to compete with men?

That's not how the Open category in most sports works, as you know. It's for anybody in effect. It's only the Women's category that is protected. Your born female anecdotal friend can identify as what they like and compete in the Open category, or in the Womens category.

You can keep on with your men are always better than us, so we need special dispensation drivel all you like. Just don't expect other women to go along with it - we don't.

So no more scholarships just aimed at black kids? No more Women in Stem awards? No more Barbellion Prize for disabled authors? These are aimed at encouraging participation from underrepresented groups. Nothing to do with special dispensations or the participants being 'lesser' as you put it. But you'd bin it all as long as it meant men could be in women's stuff...

 

[icowden]

The problem is solved by doing what other sports have done. Have a protected Womens class and an Open class for males

FIA F1 has never been men only. It's for any driver. The issue has always been that racing has never encouraged the participation of women and they have tended to get pushed out easily. The F1 "W" championship was introduced to raise the profile of women drivers to try and attract more girls into the sport - and it has successfully done this, although it has now gone into administration due to lack of investment.

 

[multitool]

Your debating technique is to re post a link you posted 5 months ago, from a man who is similarly obsessed with Kellie Jay Keen. If you're going to insist on the guilt-by-association thing, it's perfectly relevant that you yourself have routinely platformed people with views that are just as offensive.

It's a different association. Keen is telling people to associate with fascists.


I have never platformed offensive views. Your critique is that I once posted a cartoon making a valid point, but you felt it was invalidated because the artist held other unpalatable views.

This is ad hominen. Again, typical of your dishonesty.

 

[monkers]

Your debating technique is to re post a link you posted 5 months ago, from a man who is similarly obsessed with Kellie Jay Keen. If you're going to insist on the guilt-by-association thing, it's perfectly relevant that you yourself have routinely platformed people with views that are just as offensive.

From a statement made by Women's Place UK ...

In May 2018, we became aware of several tweets by KJK that made pejorative comments about Muslim communities. We believed these tweets would contribute to a hostile environment for people from minoritised communities. The views expressed in these tweets are diametrically opposed to our principles and beliefs. We were unable to reorganise the panel and therefore withdrew from the meeting.

KJK or KKK?

It is not obsessive behaviour to robustly and repeatedly reject the rantings of known bigots.

FWIW, it is not in my memory that multi-tool has projected or voiced racism. Maybe you can show that he has?

 

[AuroraSaab]

She seems to be arguing that people should put aside their views on other issues in order to unite to combat gender ideology. Other gender critical people disagree.

Why you feel the need to post a video you've already posted, and which was discussed at length in June, I have no idea. Other than you are obsessed with KJK and you imagine you can use her individual views to undermine everybody who doesn't believe in gender ideology, obviously.

 

[monkers]

That's not how the Open category in most sports works, as you know. It's for anybody in effect. It's only the Women's category that is protected. Your born female anecdotal friend can identify as what they like and compete in the Open category, or in the Womens category.



So no more scholarships just aimed at black kids? No more Women in Stem awards? No more Barbellion Prize for disabled authors? These are aimed at encouraging participation from underrepresented groups. Nothing to do with special dispensations or the participants being 'lesser' as you put it. But you'd bin it all as long as it meant men could be in women's stuff...

Stop saying 'STEM'.

I have headed up STEM depts in colleges. STEM is nothing to do with women's rights, it's about some of us promoting opportunities for women.
Trans people and non-binary people were welcome and their identities respected. There were never any issues with trans people in STEM. STEM has no relevant connection with sport.

Women were always welcome in STEM depts before, but quite often they didn't sign up or dropped out early. Those who dropped out were offered exit interviews, but pretty often were just asking to join other courses where their friends were, rather than other reasons.

We needed to do something that gave encouragement to other groups (not just women), and we were largely successful.

My formal learner I mentioned was a learner in STEM centre that I managed.

It shows how weak your argument is when you keep dragging this up.

 

[AuroraSaab]

From a statement made by Women's Place UK ...

And what? Some people agree with her style of activism, some don't. That applies to both groups and individuals.

I remain bemused that some people seem to think all women must agree with each other all the time. It's an ideological purity that is never demanded from any other group, whether it's a political party or a community. It's certainly not demanded from the transactivist community.

It is not obsessive behaviour to robustly and repeatedly reject the rantings of known bigots.

It's obsessive to focus on one individual and try to present them as representing a broad movement. I could do the same for the trans community with videos of Jeffrey Marsh or Dylan Mulvaney, but I don't.

FWIW, it is not in my memory that multi-tool has projected or voiced racism. Maybe you can show that he has?

I was talking about India Willoughby. Can't think of anybody else who could say this and still be asked in TV and radio shows:

 

[AuroraSaab]

STEM is nothing to do with women's rights, it's about some of us promoting opportunities for women.

It is about opportunities, just as separate competitions in chess, billiards, darts, are about opportunities for women. It's also about raising the profile of the women in those industries and sports and encouraging participation from underrepresented groups. Which is one of the things that a protected category for women in sports, and awards and prizes just for women, does.

You try to spin this as women being lesser, or as a patronising indulgence, or as unnecessary, simply to bolster your argument that men should be in women's sports and in fact in anything at all that is designated just for women. Women are allowed to have stuff that's just for them, just like other groups.

 

[monkers]

And what? Some people agree with her style of activism, some don't. That applies to both groups and individuals.

I remain bemused that some people seem to think all women must agree with each other all the time. It's an ideological purity that is never demanded from any other group, whether it's a political party or a community. It's certainly not demanded from the transactivist community.

Lying and bigotry are not 'a style of activism'. WPUK withdrew from a meeting because they did not wish to share a platform with a racist.

Yes you remain bemused. I didn't expect otherwise. You keep claiming that you are speaking for 'many' women. Actually you don't. It means jack shoot because many of us are never going to agree with you. This is something you need to remember - you speak only for yourself, and I speak only for myself.

You are arguing for 'ideological purity' though aren't you - it's contained within more or less every post you make.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Like a bolt of lightning ⚡

I'm shocked to find out a fact about my pronouns


View: https://youtu.be/1bR6ZVUbYWw?si=bQSPjsL0rmpWfIKB


They aren't real-oh well back to being good old me