monkers
Legendary Member
Good grief, did you even read it? I know you don't read my posts properly, but how you manage to write this as a reply is frankly beyond me.
Gender again. Sorry!
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Good grief, did you even read it? I know you don't read my posts properly, but how you manage to write this as a reply is frankly beyond me.
icowden
Legendary Member
I'm pretty sure that you have previously stated that gender identity is innate from birth. Are you now saying that it is a product of nurture and not nature?
I'm not sure how dropping the need for a diagnosis helps. But then I'm not sold on the idea of GRC, mostly because the point of it seems to be to pretend that someone is something that they are not by using surgery and medication to provide a cosmetic change to appearance - and in some cases bodily functions.
I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this question - what benefit does a GRC really have? Is the sole benefit to give someone who is Trans a piece of paper to cling to? Men can marry and have relationships with men or women and vice versa and choose how to live their lives however they want. The only other benefit of a GRC would seem to be for people who have previously been men to be able to gain access to spaces that they were previously not legally allowed to access, and this seems very questionable.
monkers
Legendary Member
Then quote me.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Here's you saying gender identity is innate. Now you're saying it's not.
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monkers
Legendary Member
How can you do your job and not know? Wait a minute you do know, don't you? You know that the world's experts on this gave evidence to the WHO whereupon it was decided that gender incongruence is not a mental illness and therefore no diagnosis of mental illness is possible.
monkers
Legendary Member
Where? There's nothing here.
monkers
Legendary Member
Not one of those says that in my opinion gender is 'innate from birth'. Try harder.
monkers
Legendary Member
Here is me from just last night, saying that gender identity is not innate from birth.
Which pair of words do children have any meaningful sense of earliest, 'boys and girls', or 'males and females'?
AuroraSaab
Squire
Now you're having to redefine the meaning of 'innate' as well as of 'woman' in order to make an argument.
Innate means there from birth. Something cannot be innate if it starts when you're a toddler, a teenager, or any other age.
That's the point. You've completely contradicted yourself in 24 hours. You've always insisted gender identity is innate. Now you're saying it isn't.
Innate means there from birth. Something cannot be innate if it starts when you're a toddler, a teenager, or any other age.
That's the point. You've completely contradicted yourself in 24 hours. You've always insisted gender identity is innate. Now you're saying it isn't.
monkers
Legendary Member
My posts say that the WHO say that gender identity is innate. 'Innate' can mean 'from birth' but it doesn't have to, it has other definitions.
Example:
: originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dic...ng to,,individual from birth : native, inborn
Now find an example where I say that in my opinion gender identity is innate from birth as has been claimed.
icowden
Legendary Member
Well quite easily really. I move data and create analytics reports. I'm not a medical professional.
We already had this discussion. This is the SNOMED tree for Gender Identity Disorder (also Gender Identity Incongruence - synonym)
SNOMED CT Concept (SNOMED RT+CTV3)
Clinical finding (finding)
Disease (disorder)
Mental disorder (disorder)
Identity disorder (disorder)
Gender identity disorder (disorder)
The only change that the WHO have agreed to is in ICD11 (which is not yet in use in most Trusts) where it has been moved from Mental Health to Sexual Health. It is still a diagnosis. It was moved there to address stigma. If you have gender incongruence you will still be seen by mental health professionals in a mental health setting and not in your local Sexual Health clinic.
Gender Dysphoria (incongruence - synonym) is classified by the WHO in SNOMED as a Mental Disorder. This is the overarching system used throughout the world.
monkers
Legendary Member
This is less about what classification you place it under in your tree; it is more about the declaration made by the WHO on the nature of gender incongruence.
The WHO moved gender incongruence out of the mental health category, does that alone not give you a whiff of the fact that they no longer consider gender incongruence to be a mental health condition? And if it is not a mental health condition, how is a diagnosis of a mental health condition possible? And yet, there are a number of you claiming that it is, without any expertise between you.
So here is you in the first line of your reply,''I'm not a medical professional'' but still objecting to Self-ID. Now why is that?
icowden
Legendary Member
Because I can read a coding system which clearly states that a disorder of Gender Incongruence is a mental health disorder. I can also understand that treatment for said disorder is provided by Mental Health Services. It doesn't matter what the WHO decided to do with ICD11. That's almost completely irrelevant as it's just a coding system. There seems to be an active movement to de-pathologise Gender Incongruence and treat it the same as homosexuality.
What isn't clear is why.
icowden
Legendary Member
Because there are still concerns that necessary safeguards need to be in place to prevent people with sexual fetishes carrying them out in public under the guise of being Trans.
monkers
Legendary Member
Oh so it's back to your moral code that those people who don't do it in the missionary position with the lights off while wearing winceyette pyjamas are all perverts.
What 'sexual fetishes' are trans people going to do in public after Self-ID that they can't do already?
