Gender again. Sorry!

[Deleted member 159]

You extrapolated that men are faster than women by 5% from this

They are. Go and pick times for different levels of sport for men and women these are from U17 UK best results. You see, what a

Outdoor U17 Men​

Event	Athlete	Club/Country	Record	Year
100m	Shaun Pearce	Carmarthen H	10.42	2013
	Joel Pascall-Menzie	Newham and Essex Beagles	10.39w	2019
200m	Jona Efoloko	Sale H	21.12	2015
	Joel Pascall-Menzie	Newham and Essex Beagles	21.05w	2019
400m	Kris Robertson	Kirkintilloch Olympians AC	47.08	2004
800m	Max Burgin	Halifax Harriers & AC	1.49.21	2017
1500m	Matthew Shirling	Liverpool Harriers	3.49.04	2012
3000m	Henry Dover	Shaftesbury Barnet H	8:24.06	2022
100mH	Joseph Harding	Basildon AC	12.48w	2019
	Tristan Anthony	Verlea AC	12.60	1999
400mH	Samael Lunt	Wirral AC	51.78	2022
5000m Walk	Philip King	Brighton & Hove AC	21.31.18	1991
1500m S/C	David Lewis	Rossendale H	4.13.6	1977
High Jump	Dominic Ogbechie	Highgate H	2.18	2018
Pole Vault	Neil Winter	Shaftesbury Barnet H	5.00	1990
Long Jump	Oliver McNeillis	Halesowen AC & CC	7.50	2004
Triple Jump	Jonathan Moore	Birchfield Harriers	15.67	2000
Shot	Lewis Byng	Stratford-upon-Avon AC	19.45	2018
Discus	George Armstrong	Leeds City AC	60.62	2014
Hammer	Andrew Tolputt	Windsor, Slough Eton & H AC	76.28	1984
Javelin	Huw Bevan	Bridgnorth AC	69.60	2011
Decathlon	Pedro Gleadall	Blackheath and Bromley	6600	2018

Outdoor U17 Women​

Event	Athlete	Club/Country	Record	Year
100m	Jodie Williams	Herts Phoenix	11.56	2008
	Amy Hunt	Charnwood AC	11.56	2018
200m	Simmone Jacobs	Reading AC	23.58	1983
300m	Cheriece Hylton	Blackheath & Bromley AC	37.91	2013
800m	Katy-Ann McDonald	Blackheath and Bromley	2:05.07	2016
1500m	Carol Meagan	Ireland	4:19.94	1979
3000m	Innes Fitzgerald	Exeter H	9:21.28	2022
80m H	Alicia Barrett	Chesterfield AC	10.87 w+3.4	2014
	Pippa Earley	Kingston AC & Poly Harriers	10.97 w+0.1	2017
300m H	Meghan Beesley	Tamworth AC	41.41	2006
5000m Walk	Kate Veale	Ireland	23:27.58	2009
1500m SC	Kiya Dee	Cheltenham	04.56.74	2021
High Jump	Morgan Lake	Windsor SE &H	1.88	2013
Pole Vault	Gemma Tutton	Lewes AC	3.90	2021
Long Jump	Margaret Cheetham	Liverpool Harriers	6.42	1984
Triple Jump	Naomi Ogbeta	Trafford AC	12.61	2014
Shot	Michaela Walsh	Ireland	16.03	2015
	Serena Vincent	City of Portsmouth	16.03	2018
Discus	Georgie Taylor	Havering AC	47.04	2013
Hammer	Michaela Walsh	Ireland	63.99	2015
Javelin	Ayesha Jones	Marshall Milton Keynes AC	50.85	2022
Heptathlon	Morgan Lake	Windsor SE &H	5474	2013

 

[Deleted member 159]

Only credulous pricks like you, Andy, would suck up whatever culture war outrage sites like 'Triggernometry' throw at you, without pause for thought.

These sites, of which you are so fond, pander to and inflame prejudices of an audience who have not adapted to the social media age and have not learned the lessons of media literacy.

You've had this spelt out to you several times, but you are too pig ignorant to reflect that it might be you.

"The world" is not full of people being silenced and de-platformed for just 'having a different opinion'. You've never even met a trans person, nor do you know a single woman who has been affected in any way by the existence of trans women.

The ugly truth about you, and people of your mentality, is that if you'd have been around in 1930s Germany you would have been out last night smashing windows of jewish-owned businesses because you lapped up the hate-mongering propaganda about that minority group too.

You think it's all a bit of a laugh, don't you. But your hate-spreading affects not only real people on the end of it but also those who give in to hatred.

The huge irony, of course, is that the only reason the profile of trans people and the campaign to afford them dignity exists is because of people like you.

You click on the Triggernometry video, which is designed to outrage, you post links to it in your outrage and a few more fools lap it up, and the creators get ad revenue from YouTube, which is the ONLY reason they produce this content.

Naturally, you are too pig-shît thick to realise that you are being manipulated.

You absolute mug.

My, my that's an awful lot of diatribe

 

[multitool]

My, my that's an awful lot of diatribe

Not really. Far more than you are worth, given your level of immaturity.

 

[monkers]

They are. Go and pick times for different levels of sport for men and women these are from U17 UK best results. You see, what a
View attachment 5213

Outdoor U17 Men​

Event	Athlete	Club/Country	Record	Year
100m	Shaun Pearce	Carmarthen H	10.42	2013
	Joel Pascall-Menzie	Newham and Essex Beagles	10.39w	2019
200m	Jona Efoloko	Sale H	21.12	2015
	Joel Pascall-Menzie	Newham and Essex Beagles	21.05w	2019
400m	Kris Robertson	Kirkintilloch Olympians AC	47.08	2004
800m	Max Burgin	Halifax Harriers & AC	1.49.21	2017
1500m	Matthew Shirling	Liverpool Harriers	3.49.04	2012
3000m	Henry Dover	Shaftesbury Barnet H	8:24.06	2022
100mH	Joseph Harding	Basildon AC	12.48w	2019
	Tristan Anthony	Verlea AC	12.60	1999
400mH	Samael Lunt	Wirral AC	51.78	2022
5000m Walk	Philip King	Brighton & Hove AC	21.31.18	1991
1500m S/C	David Lewis	Rossendale H	4.13.6	1977
High Jump	Dominic Ogbechie	Highgate H	2.18	2018
Pole Vault	Neil Winter	Shaftesbury Barnet H	5.00	1990
Long Jump	Oliver McNeillis	Halesowen AC & CC	7.50	2004
Triple Jump	Jonathan Moore	Birchfield Harriers	15.67	2000
Shot	Lewis Byng	Stratford-upon-Avon AC	19.45	2018
Discus	George Armstrong	Leeds City AC	60.62	2014
Hammer	Andrew Tolputt	Windsor, Slough Eton & H AC	76.28	1984
Javelin	Huw Bevan	Bridgnorth AC	69.60	2011
Decathlon	Pedro Gleadall	Blackheath and Bromley	6600	2018

Outdoor U17 Women​

Event	Athlete	Club/Country	Record	Year
100m	Jodie Williams	Herts Phoenix	11.56	2008
	Amy Hunt	Charnwood AC	11.56	2018
200m	Simmone Jacobs	Reading AC	23.58	1983
300m	Cheriece Hylton	Blackheath & Bromley AC	37.91	2013
800m	Katy-Ann McDonald	Blackheath and Bromley	2:05.07	2016
1500m	Carol Meagan	Ireland	4:19.94	1979
3000m	Innes Fitzgerald	Exeter H	9:21.28	2022
80m H	Alicia Barrett	Chesterfield AC	10.87 w+3.4	2014
	Pippa Earley	Kingston AC & Poly Harriers	10.97 w+0.1	2017
300m H	Meghan Beesley	Tamworth AC	41.41	2006
5000m Walk	Kate Veale	Ireland	23:27.58	2009
1500m SC	Kiya Dee	Cheltenham	04.56.74	2021
High Jump	Morgan Lake	Windsor SE &H	1.88	2013
Pole Vault	Gemma Tutton	Lewes AC	3.90	2021
Long Jump	Margaret Cheetham	Liverpool Harriers	6.42	1984
Triple Jump	Naomi Ogbeta	Trafford AC	12.61	2014
Shot	Michaela Walsh	Ireland	16.03	2015
	Serena Vincent	City of Portsmouth	16.03	2018
Discus	Georgie Taylor	Havering AC	47.04	2013
Hammer	Michaela Walsh	Ireland	63.99	2015
Javelin	Ayesha Jones	Marshall Milton Keynes AC	50.85	2022
Heptathlon	Morgan Lake	Windsor SE &H	5474	2013

All records are set by outliers. I'd hope you'd know that.

On Strava I'm on leaderboards, not because I'm a fast cyclist, or because I cheat. It's just a confluence of ideal conditions. I've got second places, but there's a schoolgirl hereabouts who can pass me on her Pendleton - she's not a Strava user.

Andrew Feather says it's becoming harder to maintain his record of the most KOMs because unless he happens to get to a hill on a day when he is on form and the conditions are perfect, it gets harder.

Sometimes you just have to use your brain (where available).

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Sometimes you just have to use your brain (where available).

Well, I'm confused.
What exactly is your argument?
Is it to do with this?
ESSAY / HUMAN NATURE

Sex in Sport: Men Don’t Always Have the Advantage​

Which as it says is an essay. Not a scientific paper or even pseudo science.

Are you using that as the basis to argue for the inclusion of trans women in women's sport categories, or merely as a basis for calling @CXRAndy a fool?

 

[monkers]

Well, I'm confused.
What exactly is your argument?
Is it to do with this?
ESSAY / HUMAN NATURE

Sex in Sport: Men Don’t Always Have the Advantage​

Which as it says is an essay. Not a scientific paper or even pseudo science.

Are you using that as the basis to argue for the inclusion of trans women in women's sport categories, or merely as a basis for calling @CXRAndy a fool?

It's an essay by an assistant professor who has conducted research and examined the recent research of others. Although now retired she was a powerlifter.

She refutes the argument that sex is binary in the same ways that I do - that if you try to pin down what it is to be female with reference to a set of averages, you end up with a small cohort, and the more parameters you add to try to narrow it down, the smaller your cohort of those that fit becomes.

She argues that there are many myths and misconceptions being used to justify position; but that there remains insufficient evidence to fully support the argument one way or the other.

The Canadian Study, although it did not introduce new research, studied the available data. It came to the conclusion that males do have an advantage, but most of that advantage comes from factors other than the testosterone narrative, such as societal factors. In the case of female boxing, women were prevented from obtaining boxing licences.

The truth is that women have been oppressed in any number of ways, and sport is a prime example. The number of women with an interest in participating in sport, or just having too much else to do with the caring roles that are expected of them frustrates opportunities. If women were participating in sport to the same degree as men, I will speculate that the margins would diminish.

I can well understand how unfair advantage in elite level sport is something that concerns people. However the anti-trans nutters are keen to maintain sex segregation in the egg and spoon race at primary school sports days. Sometimes a sense of proportionality is required; instead we get the kind of moral panic that we are seeing playing out.

 

[Deleted member 159]

It's an essay by an assistant professor who has conducted research and examined the recent research of others. Although now retired she was a powerlifter.

She refutes the argument that sex is binary in the same ways that I do - that if you try to pin down what it is to be female with reference to a set of averages, you end up with a small cohort, and the more parameters you add to try to narrow it down, the smaller your cohort of those that fit becomes.

She argues that there are many myths and misconceptions being used to justify position; but that there remains insufficient evidence to fully support the argument one way or the other.

The Canadian Study, although it did not introduce new research, studied the available data. It came to the conclusion that males do have an advantage, but most of that advantage comes from factors other than the testosterone narrative, . In the case of female boxing, women were prevented from obtaining boxing licences.

The truth is that women have been oppressed in any number of ways, and sport is a prime example. The number of women with an interest in participating in sport, or just having too much else to do with the caring roles that are expected of them frustrates opportunities.

I can well understand how unfair advantage in elite level sport is something that concerns people. However the anti-trans nutters are keen to maintain sex segregation in the egg and spoon race at primary school sports days. Sometimes a sense of proportionality is required; instead we get the kind of moral panic that we are seeing playing out.

Women have being doing sports in vast numbers since probably as early 1930s if not before. Sex is binary.

Having trans in any level diminishes the opportunities you rattle on about. Giving girls and women to compete solely against their sex is of paramount importance.

 

[AndyRM]

I wonder, do you hang about other niche forums banging on about transgender folks, or is it just here that you voice your obsession because nobody else will find out?

 

[monkers]

Women have being doing sports in vast numbers since probably as early 1930s if not before. Sex is binary.

Having trans in any level diminishes the opportunities you rattle on about. Giving girls and women to compete solely against their sex is of paramount importance.

You are blind to the barriers that women face to participation in sport.

When females actually do break through and become successful, look competitive, use the similar aggression levels to males, people (mainly males) then criticise them for 'being too masculine'.

Females tend to be more risk-averse than males. We don't only have to look to sport to see this, we can look at driver behaviours, though to be fair, I see this gap as closing.

When you use terms such as 'full-blooded male' as you tend to, you are implying that females can not be 'full-blooded' enough to compete. It's almost as if Andy, that you prefer sex separated categories because you among those men who fear being beaten by females.

https://www.funding4sport.co.uk/downloads/women_barriers_participation.pdf

 

[AuroraSaab]

The Canadian Study, although it did not introduce new research, studied the available data. It came to the conclusion that males do have an advantage, but most of that advantage comes from factors other than the testosterone narrative, such as societal factors. In the case of female boxing, women were prevented from obtaining boxing licences.

If that were true you would expect male and female athletes with similar levels of support, finance, nutrition, training, to post similar results. They don't. The US men's Olympic track and field results are all faster/longer than the US women's despite similar funding.

The Women's 100m world record is beaten by 1,500 boys and men every year. Most of whom won't have received elite athlete levels of support or training.

The truth is that women have been oppressed in any number of ways, and sport is a prime example.

Allowing men into their events is a further example of how women are oppressed. That it was ever allowed and is even up for discussion tells you a lot about female oppression too.

However the anti-trans nutters are keen to maintain sex segregation in the egg and spoon race at primary school sports days.

Girls deserve fairness at all levels. You have constantly argued that there is no unfair male advantage at any level. Talking about kids sports days is just an attempt to make the discussion seem trivial when it isn't.

Kylie Small has just won a national US cycling championship. They placed 44th last year in the Men's competition. Big improvement in one year ...


View: https://twitter.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1733236385933324342


They also came 14th out of 41 in the varsity collegiate category. With lap times that would have seen them at the bottom of the men's listings, lapped by others, and pulled from the race.


View: https://twitter.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1732911818127921488


The idea that Small's results are down to anything other than the massive advantage of a male body is ridiculous.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Serena Williams serve speed 128 mph.
Andy Murray serve speed 145mph.

Nothing to do with lack of opportunities in sport or being risk averse.

All to do with male physiology advantage.

 

[monkers]

If that were true you would expect male and female athletes with similar levels of support, finance, nutrition, training, to post similar results. They don't. The US men's Olympic track and field results are all faster/longer than the US women's despite similar funding.

The Women's 100m world record is beaten by 1,500 boys and men every year. Most of whom won't have received elite athlete levels of support or training.

This is typical of the false argument that you typically present. It isn't that I don't agree that the results for males shows higher level of performance. Where I disagree is the premise that you and others present that trans women retain such biological advantage that they will always win - the evidence is that they don't always win. You present outlier cases as being typical when they are not. The evidence points to the fact that biological advantage diminishes over time, and not after ingestion of the first hormone tablet. Extrapolation of the data suggest that 15 - 18 months of hormone replacement therapy finds the cross over point where the higher bone mass of a typical trans woman becomes a disadvantage due to the reduction in accompanying muscle mass. Therefore my senses are that trans women can successfully be integrated into women's sport. However, scientific knowledge through proper research, along with an intent of inclusion rather than automatic exclusion should prevail.

The supposed biological advantages are not the only advantages. The Canadian study does not dismiss this, but says that the other factors are more significant.

All research shows that trans women lose advantage, but it does take time, and most likely more than the 12 months previously put in place.

There's been a lot of focus on Lia Thomas. I did look into this a bit at one time, from what I saw the evidence pointed to the fact that tall males are faster swimmers, and tall females are faster swimmers. Lia Thomas is quite tall, though not at height that other female swimmers can not / do not reach. She is 6ft 1, which is above the typical female range. I could theorise that Lia's biological advantage is height rather than any other factor; but her height may or may not be the only significant factor, and to do so would clearly be unscientific.

If height is the greater biological advantage, then the classes should accord with height rather than homological sex if we are looking for a level playing field?

I happen to have a former sister-in-law who was a competitive swimmer who was being considered for the olympics. Ultimately she wasn't selected, but I remember her 50 years ago talking about the best swimmers were all tall, and that those selected did prove to be a little faster, but they were all a little taller - though to be clear I will stress that this anecdote does not usurp scientific evidence.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

The Canadian Study

Can we have a link please?
Is it the one you previously posted, which has been heavily criticised?

 

[monkers]

Can we have a link please?
Is it the one you previously posted, which has been heavily criticised?

Yes it's that one. It was dismissed by some because it didn't meet the necessary requirement of being useful to pushing moral panic.

 

[Deleted member 159]

All records are set by outliers.

I'm comparing the difference between sexes in their respective division, not the actual figure.
🤦‍♂️