Gender again. Sorry!

[Deleted member 159]

Where I disagree is the premise that you and others present that trans women retain such biological advantage that they will always win

I showed you the results from the Cyclo-cross when a male literally rides away on lap 1 and takes the same time gap per lap.

You're completely deluded if you don't think there is not an advantage to being a male even after taking drugs. It doesn't reduce the lung/heart capacity, nor bone length.

You've painted yourself into a corner in which there is no escape from your position.

 

[monkers]

I'm comparing the difference between sexes in their respective division, not the actual figure.
🤦‍♂️

A 'level playing field' is the pursuit of taking into account the average performances between cohorts. In the (false) binary of 'men and women' it is the average values that count, not world records. To say that the fastest man is faster than the fastest woman is not evidence of typical performance. The fastest man and the fastest woman are just two outliers.

 

[monkers]

I showed you the results from the Cyclo-cross when a male literally rides away on lap 1 and takes the same time gap per lap.

You're completely deluded if you don't think there is not an advantage to being a male even after taking drugs. It doesn't reduce the lung/heart capacity, nor bone length.

You've painted yourself into a corner in which there is no escape from your position.

I have no diagnosis of being mentally ill. I certainly won't be accepting any such diagnosis from the likes of you, no matter how much you think you know.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Yes it's that one. It was dismissed by some because it didn't meet the necessary requirement of being useful to pushing moral panic.

It was dismissed for a number of reasons, primarily because it wasn't a peer reviewed scientific paper.

Even a cursory look at the introduction reveals this

'In 2021, the CCES commissioned E-Alliance to complete a review of scientific and grey literature on transgender athlete participation in competitive sport'

 

[AuroraSaab]

This is typical of the false argument that you typically present. It isn't that I don't agree that the results for males shows higher level of performance. Where I disagree is the premise that you and others present that trans women retain such biological advantage that they will always win - the evidence is that they don't always win.

The argument is that transwomen have an unfair advantage because of their male physiology. Nobody has said they always win. We judge fairness at the outset not by results. A doped TDF rider has an unfair advantage, even if they come last.

Extrapolation of the data suggest that 15 - 18 months of hormone replacement therapy finds the cross over point where the higher bone mass of a typical trans woman becomes a disadvantage due to the reduction in accompanying muscle mass.

Doesn't change all the other physiological advantages of a male body.

All research shows that trans women lose advantage, but it does take time, and most likely more than the 12 months previously put in place.

Even transwoman sports scientist Joanne Harper has given up trying to prove the 'no advantage' argument after her own results showed it still remained after about 3 years.

If height is the greater biological advantage, then the classes should accord with height rather than homological sex if we are looking for a level playing field?

No because height is only one factor that influences swimming ability. The main determining factor for advantage is a male body. Lia Thomas went from mid 500th's in Men's nationally to top 10 in Women's, despite swimming against many men shorter than them.

 

[monkers]

It was dismissed for a number of reasons, primarily because it wasn't a peer reviewed scientific paper.

Even a cursory look at the introduction reveals this

'In 2021, the CCES commissioned E-Alliance to complete a review of scientific and grey literature on transgender athlete participation in competitive sport'

It wasn't peer reviewed because it did not carry out new research. It was a meta study of existing peer reviewed research into the differing factors. What the study reports is that there is biological advantage between males and females in sport. They say that the greater disadvantage of being female is the sum of the other factors.

Their conclusion was that trans women do have advantage over women but not for the reasons that tend to be promoted.

I presented it, not to pretend that there is no advantage, but to show that we must fix the socio-politico-economic factors that disadvantage the majority of women who wish to participate in higher levels of sport. This is a more pressing need for a level playing field. However anti-trans activists are inclined only to take the opportunity to take aim at trans women, thereby disassociating themselves with the true imperative and substituting it with bigotry.

I'm not against taking measures to pursue a level playing field in elite level sports, but I an against banning trans women from playing women in board games, and creating sex segregated sports in primary schools.

 

[monkers]

The argument is that transwomen have an unfair advantage because of their male physiology. Nobody has said they always win. We judge fairness at the outset not by results. A doped TDF rider has an unfair advantage, even if they come last.


Doesn't change all the other physiological advantages of a male body.

Even transwoman sports scientist Joanne Harper has given up trying to prove the 'no advantage' argument after her own results showed it still remained after about 3 years.


No because height is only one factor that influences swimming ability. The main determining factor for advantage is a male body. Lia Thomas went from mid 500th's in Men's nationally to top 10 in Women's, despite swimming against many men shorter than them.

Arguments with bigotry at their root and not the need to ensure that women become more widely free to participate in sport and be successful.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It was dismissed for a number of reasons, primarily because it wasn't a peer reviewed scientific paper.

Canada has completely succumbed to the inclusion at all costs to women philosophy. 50 year old male swims (and changes with) girls in a teenage swim meet becausethe rules allow it. The nine other swimmers were 13 to 14. Guessing they didn't win, which of course means it was perfectly fair and they didn't have any advantage....

(No pay wall source)

https://www.theblaze.com/news/50yrold-male-swimming-teen-girls

 

[AuroraSaab]

Arguments with bigotry at their root and not the need to ensure that women become more widely free to participate in sport and be successful.

You can address both things at once: cheating men and better opportunities for women and girls. In fact, rectifying the first helps address the second.

 

[monkers]

Canada has completely succumbed to the inclusion at all costs to women philosophy. 50 year old male swims (and changes with) girls in a teenage swim meet becausethe rules allow it. The nine other swimmers were 13 to 14. Guessing they didn't win, which of course means it was perfectly fair and they didn't have any advantage....

(No pay wall source)

https://www.theblaze.com/news/50yrold-male-swimming-teen-girls

There were two age categories. She swam with the over 15s. There is no mention in the article that she changed with the girls.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

'In 2021, the CCES commissioned E-Alliance to complete a review of scientific and grey literature on transgender athlete participation in competitive sport'

It wasn't peer reviewed because it did not carry out new research. It was a meta study of existing peer reviewed research into the differing factors.

Grey literature - non scientific stuff.

 

[monkers]

You can address both things at once: cheating men and better opportunities for women and girls. In fact, rectifying the first helps address the second.

I've been saying this for a long time. One is a significant problem, the other one much less of a problem. I'm convinced that much more can be done towards a level playing fields than just blanket bans.

I don't see you arguing anywhere for the more significant measures to increase women's participation in sport; that's how I know this is all just bigotry.

We all do our bit in different ways. For example I favour Trek bikes because the owner of the company 'gets it'. When the owner of Trek discovered that his company was paying the female professional cyclists less than the males, he expressed his disgust and fixed that in his team on the spot. We need to keep telling the stories like this. My experience in schools taught me that many school leaders believe in giving the girls the same opportunities, but continue with lower expectations for girls, with the emphasis on outcomes for boys. I've seen this where the school leaders are women too, so it's not just a male attitude things, it is a structural societal problem that needs fixing.

 

[monkers]

Grey literature - non scientific stuff.

If you say so, but I am of the opinion that if you just lazily read the conclusion to a meta study without following the links to the evidence, then you just become a victim to your own laziness.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

If you say so, but I am of the opinion that if you just lazily read the conclusion

It's from the description of the study.

Anyhow there's plenty of in depth criticism, some of which was quoted/linked to on this very thread.

 

[classic33]

They are. Go and pick times for different levels of sport for men and women these are from U17 UK best results. You see, what a
View attachment 5213

Outdoor U17 Men​

Event	Athlete	Club/Country	Record	Year
100m	Shaun Pearce	Carmarthen H	10.42	2013
	Joel Pascall-Menzie	Newham and Essex Beagles	10.39w	2019
200m	Jona Efoloko	Sale H	21.12	2015
	Joel Pascall-Menzie	Newham and Essex Beagles	21.05w	2019
400m	Kris Robertson	Kirkintilloch Olympians AC	47.08	2004
800m	Max Burgin	Halifax Harriers & AC	1.49.21	2017
1500m	Matthew Shirling	Liverpool Harriers	3.49.04	2012
3000m	Henry Dover	Shaftesbury Barnet H	8:24.06	2022
100mH	Joseph Harding	Basildon AC	12.48w	2019
	Tristan Anthony	Verlea AC	12.60	1999
400mH	Samael Lunt	Wirral AC	51.78	2022
5000m Walk	Philip King	Brighton & Hove AC	21.31.18	1991
1500m S/C	David Lewis	Rossendale H	4.13.6	1977
High Jump	Dominic Ogbechie	Highgate H	2.18	2018
Pole Vault	Neil Winter	Shaftesbury Barnet H	5.00	1990
Long Jump	Oliver McNeillis	Halesowen AC & CC	7.50	2004
Triple Jump	Jonathan Moore	Birchfield Harriers	15.67	2000
Shot	Lewis Byng	Stratford-upon-Avon AC	19.45	2018
Discus	George Armstrong	Leeds City AC	60.62	2014
Hammer	Andrew Tolputt	Windsor, Slough Eton & H AC	76.28	1984
Javelin	Huw Bevan	Bridgnorth AC	69.60	2011
Decathlon	Pedro Gleadall	Blackheath and Bromley	6600	2018

Outdoor U17 Women​

Event	Athlete	Club/Country	Record	Year
100m	Jodie Williams	Herts Phoenix	11.56	2008
	Amy Hunt	Charnwood AC	11.56	2018
200m	Simmone Jacobs	Reading AC	23.58	1983
300m	Cheriece Hylton	Blackheath & Bromley AC	37.91	2013
800m	Katy-Ann McDonald	Blackheath and Bromley	2:05.07	2016
1500m	Carol Meagan	Ireland	4:19.94	1979
3000m	Innes Fitzgerald	Exeter H	9:21.28	2022
80m H	Alicia Barrett	Chesterfield AC	10.87 w+3.4	2014
	Pippa Earley	Kingston AC & Poly Harriers	10.97 w+0.1	2017
300m H	Meghan Beesley	Tamworth AC	41.41	2006
5000m Walk	Kate Veale	Ireland	23:27.58	2009
1500m SC	Kiya Dee	Cheltenham	04.56.74	2021
High Jump	Morgan Lake	Windsor SE &H	1.88	2013
Pole Vault	Gemma Tutton	Lewes AC	3.90	2021
Long Jump	Margaret Cheetham	Liverpool Harriers	6.42	1984
Triple Jump	Naomi Ogbeta	Trafford AC	12.61	2014
Shot	Michaela Walsh	Ireland	16.03	2015
	Serena Vincent	City of Portsmouth	16.03	2018
Discus	Georgie Taylor	Havering AC	47.04	2013
Hammer	Michaela Walsh	Ireland	63.99	2015
Javelin	Ayesha Jones	Marshall Milton Keynes AC	50.85	2022
Heptathlon	Morgan Lake	Windsor SE &H	5474	2013

There's two names on that list I do know. Both are suspect, and brought the doping cloud into amateur sport.