Gender again. Sorry!

[AndyRM]

Of course. But you don't need to transition. If you get off on wearing a dress and want ready access to young women, just call yourself Debbie. No-one is allowed to challenge you.

That's the risk factor we keep talking about. That and whether or not this should be considered a mental health issue.

You're describing sexual predators there though, not people actually going through the process legitimately.

The mental health aspect is... I'm not entirely sure how to put it, tricky, perhaps? Because mental health support is required, not because people are doing the wrong thing for them, but more how they go about difficult conversations and build up their own resilience to negative reactions.

 

[icowden]

You're describing sexual predators there though, not people actually going through the process legitimately.

Of course. I have been pretty consistent in my opinion that current gender critical views tend not to be aimed at people who are genuinely trans and going through incredibly difficult life choices.

The mental health aspect is... I'm not entirely sure how to put it, tricky, perhaps? Because mental health support is required, not because people are doing the wrong thing for them, but more how they go about difficult conversations and build up their own resilience to negative reactions.

I agree. I think tricky is an excellent description. People need to be able to understand the options, the risks involved and the support available. Equally more services are needed and more research needs to be carried out. As discussion with @monkers has brought up, it isn't possible at the moment to say that there isn't an innate or genetic reason why someone who feels that they have been born the wrong gender feels that way, in the same way is it is not possible to definitely say that it's a mental health issue and the result of nurture not nature. Both may be possibilities.

 

[AndyRM]

Of course. I have been pretty consistent in my opinion that current gender critical views tend not to be aimed at people who are genuinely trans and going through incredibly difficult life choices.


I agree. I think tricky is an excellent description. People need to be able to understand the options, the risks involved and the support available. Equally more services are needed and more research needs to be carried out. As discussion with @monkers has brought up, it isn't possible at the moment to say that there isn't an innate or genetic reason why someone who feels that they have been born the wrong gender feels that way, in the same way is it is not possible to definitely say that it's a mental health issue and the result of nurture not nature. Both may be possibilities.

Mmm, I think the genetic vs mental health issue is next to impossible to "solve" (again, clunky language but I can't think of anything better). For me, the mental health side is the most challenging because of the myriad pressures around conformity, what constitutes normal, what's right and wrong etc... The problem is always going to be that the outliers on both sides seem to gain all the traction and attention, for all the wrong reasons.

 

[monkers]

I see it differently, once this has been clarified by having biological sex written into law, the craze will fade for the vast majority.

Sure there will be a miniscule number who want to go through the whole process, but once easy avenues are blocked from women's sport, private spaces are etc the numbers will wither.

Cockwombling nonsense. You don't have a scooby about trans people or their lives. It sounds like you live in a bubble remote from civilisation with only the Daily Express for company.

 

[Deleted member 159]

I'm not denying there are a very, very small percentage with real body dysphoria issues.

The rest is a trend of today's society, single parents, the need for a label, being offended for any minority, trying to be different whilst unwittingly not achieving it.

Take away the easy, 'you can fit in whatever you are' avenues, the craze will wither.

Its a symptom of woke society that we are engulfed with presently

 

[monkers]

Yeh, yeh, woke this, woke that.

People who are trans generally are genuine. I don't doubt that there may be some folk who exploit opportunities, and it's fair to say that these people need to be weedled out, but for you to think that the majority are just trans for nefarious reasons is ridiculous; so I'm not surprised to hear you say it.

What other delights did you read today in your 10p Daily Express? Something about Princess Diana, or something about 190 million people in Turkey read to invade the south coast in rubber dinghies?

 

[AndyRM]

I'm not denying there are a very, very small percentage with real body dysphoria issues.

The rest is a trend of today's society, single parents, the need for a label, being offended for any minority, trying to be different whilst unwittingly not achieving it.

Take away the easy, 'you can fit in whatever you are' avenues, the craze will wither.

Its a symptom of woke society that we are engulfed with presently

This genuinely made me laugh, so well done for that. I've had a pretty boring day.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Reproductive sex is binary, but not so binary that all adult people are capable of reproducing in the usual way.

Infertile people are still either male or female though. The usual way? There's only one way of reproducing in humans. It requires a male and a female contribution.

The GC brigade would start campaigning to ban masculine looking women from women's spaces too, except that would include many of their own number.

Literally no gender critical feminist advocates for exclusion from single sex spaces on the basis of how someone looks. It's on the basis of sex.

It's your side who reduce being female to conforming to sexist feminine stereotypes.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Literally no gender critical feminist advocates for exclusion from single sex spaces on the basis of how someone looks. It's on the basis of sex.

Once you try to exclude people for being 'men' you have to enforce it. Mistakes will be made.

 

[AuroraSaab]

People who are trans generally are genuine. I don't doubt that there may be some folk who exploit opportunities, and it's fair to say that these people need to be weedled out ...

And how do you suggest we do this? You keep telling us 'It's enough to say you are a woman', so how do we discern the difference? You told us there's no test for being transgender yet admit there are those who will expoilt any accomodations given to transwomen.

This is part of the reason we have single sex spaces in the first places (and age exclusive spaces too), because you can't reliably know who is a risk and because historically men have oppressed women and just their presence can make women and girls uncomfortable in certain situations. That doesn't disappear because they identify as women or because they might well be a lovely individual if you knew them personally.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Once you try to exclude people for being 'men' you have to enforce it. Mistakes will be made.

They are already excluded when appropriate under the EA. If more gender non conforming (for want of a better phrase) women are being challenged in changing rooms or toilets it's because men are appearing in those spaces when they weren't previously. I've never seen any woman challenged for not looking like a woman in loos or changing rooms personally.

The solution to that isn't to give men access though. The solution is for women not to have to worry about males being in there at all by people using the facilities appropriate to their sex, or if they don't feel comfortable with that then a unisex third space.

(As usual though I have to remind people ...it's not really about toilets)

 

[monkers]

And how do you suggest we do this? You keep telling us 'It's enough to say you are a woman', so how do we discern the difference? You told us there's no test for being transgender yet admit there are those who will expoilt any accomodations given to transwomen.

This is part of the reason we have single sex spaces in the first places (and age exclusive spaces too), because you can't reliably know who is a risk and because historically men have oppressed women and just their presence can make women and girls uncomfortable in certain situations. That doesn't disappear because they identify as women or because they might well be a lovely individual if you knew them personally.

I've posted about this any number of times. Trouble is that despite this, you carry on inventing my opinions for me ... and how many times have I asked you to stop?

 

[AuroraSaab]

You admit that there are those who will exploit being trans, but say there's no test for being trans and we should accept it when a man says he's a woman ..... these are views you've posted several times and now you claim they are invented.

What's actually happened is you've got yourself in the unfortunate position of having said we have to accept people's assertion of their gender identity, but you also want to insist that anybody doing so who gets arrested isn't really trans but an exploitative fraud.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[monkers]

You admit that there are those who will exploit being trans, but say there's no test for being trans and we should accept it when a man says he's a woman ..... these are views you've posted several times and now you claim they are invented.

What's actually happened is you've got yourself in the unfortunate position of having said we have to accept people's assertion of their gender identity, but you also want to insist that anybody doing so who gets arrested isn't really trans but an exploitative fraud.

You can't have it both ways.

It's very simple. Humans are not always honest - there's no way to test everybody for honesty. Proof? It's not trans people that make up the biggest numbers of the prison population.

If you think that we can legislate to make all non-criminal people safe at all times from criminals, then you are wrong. Take this to the logical conclusion, and where do you end up? You end up vetting all people and watching them all the time they are out of their homes. Absolute 1984.

In the meantime we can start by making sure that politicians and journalists are honest - but they aren't because they all have something to sell.

 

[AuroraSaab]

If you think that we can legislate to make all non-criminal people safe at all times from criminals, then you are wrong.

No, you can't keep everybody safe all the time. What you do though is take simple steps to ensure that people are protected as best you can. Excluding men from women's spaces and services is one of those steps. It's been effective, though not foolproof, for about a hundred years or more.

Take this to the logical conclusion, and where do you end up? You end up vetting all people and watching them all the time they are out of their homes. Absolute 1984.

No, you don't. You end up with a robust culture of safeguarding that doesn't prioritise the wants of one small group over the dignity, privacy, and safety of another.