classic33
Me
An increase of over 500% of "transgender males, women who identify as men, located in female prisons have been convicted of violent crimes and sexual offences. Just a year ago there were fewer than five."
From that piece.
Gender again. Sorry!
- Thread starter theclaud
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From that piece.
monkers
Legendary Member
They are incorrect headline stats. Why do you choose to use incorrect data so freely and unfavourably. Does the truth not count?
The number of trans people in prison at the date of the official ministry report as at 31 March 2021 is 11. The breakdown of this number of 11 is withheld by the authorities. Therefore the number of trans women and trans men is unknown.
The number of trans people in female prisons is six. The data as to whether these people are trans men or trans women is withheld. The nature of their offences is not stated.
If hypothetically 70% of trans prisoners are convicted of sexual offences, the approximate real number can be extrapolated as 4.
AuroraSaab
Squire
They are official Ministry of Justice stats. Get in touch with them if you dispute the numbers.
Where are you getting this data? It's incorrect. Let's have the receipts. Link to the stats or at least a credible news source.
Again, source for this data?
70% of 11 is 7.7 by the way, not 4.
Your numbers are wrong. Let's see the source of your data, though actually I reckon I know.
monkers
Legendary Member
The source is the Ministry of Justice. Your's is the Daily Telegraph.
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../HMPPS_Offender_Equalities_2021-22_Report.pdf
And if it's 70% of the 6 transgender* people who are/were in the female prison estate that makes 4.
*an edit: I had mistakenly written trans rather than transgender. Yes this wording even confuses me.
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AuroraSaab
Squire
Oh I see. You're only counting those with a GRC - they are counted in the Women's stats if they are men with a GRC or in the Men's stats if they are women with a GRC. There's no data about their crimes as far as I know.
This is sneaky of you though isn't it? You now only want those with a GRC to be counted as transgender, but you know that they aren't covered in the analysis and data.
This goes against everything you've said in this thread. What happened to 'gender is innate' and all your pontificating on the Equality Act - which says you don't need a GRC to be regarded as transgender? What happened to 'You are who you say you are'?
So now only those with a GRC are genuinely transgender? Who are you to say these offenders aren't trans when that's how they identify? Only 5k GRC's have been issued so that leaves most UK transgender people as not trans according to you.
How predictably disingenuous of you.
This is sneaky of you though isn't it? You now only want those with a GRC to be counted as transgender, but you know that they aren't covered in the analysis and data.
This goes against everything you've said in this thread. What happened to 'gender is innate' and all your pontificating on the Equality Act - which says you don't need a GRC to be regarded as transgender? What happened to 'You are who you say you are'?
So now only those with a GRC are genuinely transgender? Who are you to say these offenders aren't trans when that's how they identify? Only 5k GRC's have been issued so that leaves most UK transgender people as not trans according to you.
How predictably disingenuous of you.
classic33
Me
Monkers didn't decide the wording used in the report though. Or who gets called what for the purpose of the report.
As for choosing what the wording means, and what those who use it want it to mean, you're fairly handy at that yourself.
AuroraSaab
Squire
The report is based on (a) people self IDing and (b) not counting those with GRC's in the trans stats but in the M or F stats.
Monkers now wants to pretend the first group aren't trans - though the report calls them transgender - and that only the second group (about whom data is very limited) are actually trans. As I say, very disingenuous not to say hypocritical.
Monkers now wants to pretend the first group aren't trans - though the report calls them transgender - and that only the second group (about whom data is very limited) are actually trans. As I say, very disingenuous not to say hypocritical.
classic33
Me
That's basically what the official report has already done. Not someone else's interpretation of that report.
monkers
Legendary Member
It's not my counting. It's the data from the Ministry of Justice. I've explained to you how prisoners are counted using extracts from the Ministry of Justice. I don't want 'those with a GRC to be counted as transgender', they are a different cohort to trans men and trans women.
'What happened to you who you say you are?' I can't believe you are asking. Second appeal to reason ...
That debunks this invented notion that the majority of transgender prisoners identify as the opposite sex. They don't. Their gender identity is male. They are not protected under the EqA. There is no requirement for them to go to female prisons, and they don't. They go to male prisons.
If you think you can just jumble up the words trans and transgender in some random fashion and sound convincing about it, then everybody here will see through you, with the possible exception of the one ultra-thick member of our community.
Stop reading the Daily Torybile's false narrative and study the data. Soon you should realise that this narrative is false.
Based on the 2021/2 data, there were just 6 transgender people in the female prison estate. All others were in the male estate. There is nothing to suggest that any of these 6 people were violent or dangerous. Given the risk assessment process being the way it is, I will very much doubt it.
Eleven trans prisoners were also being held. The breakdown into trans men / trans women is withheld data. The nature of their offences is unknown. Their prison placements is unknown.
In the absence of data, you can't just make stuff up.
monkers
Legendary Member
Do you know, in my very post to this thread and this site #918 I cautioned that the word 'transgender' may not mean what you think it does for all purposes. This was long before I got into discussion with you about prison stats.
I don't blame you entirely actually because you've been conned by the prevailing narratives from the media, and from GC groups. But now is the time for you to do the thinking, study the Ministry data for yourself and realise that those 'headline stats' are complete bollocks.
AuroraSaab
Squire
Their legal gender is their birth sex because they don't have a GRC. But you've spent years on here telling us that people know who they are and if they say they are a woman then they are a woman. Now they say they are a woman but you say they aren't because they don't have the GRC piece of paper? They identify as trans but have to report their legal sex as male because they don't have a GRC.
Well now it sounds like only your definition - 'Not trans if they don't have a GRC' - is the one that counts, despite it being a reverse ferret of what you've said for years.
Off the scale hypocrisy on your part, just so you can make it look like there are far fewer transwomen offenders being jailed for violent and sexual crimes than there actually are. Schrodinger's trans again.
Well now it sounds like only your definition - 'Not trans if they don't have a GRC' - is the one that counts, despite it being a reverse ferret of what you've said for years.
Off the scale hypocrisy on your part, just so you can make it look like there are far fewer transwomen offenders being jailed for violent and sexual crimes than there actually are. Schrodinger's trans again.
classic33
Me
And if she were to do what you are doing, deciding what the wording in the official report means, would you then have pointed out the fact that it didn't say that in the report that was linked to?
The system is deciding what is done, what wording is used, not anyone not involved in it.
monkers
Legendary Member
Oh is the Ministry's language too difficult for you? And it's all my fault because of your inability to understand?
187 transgender prisoners identified their gender as legally male. Of these 181 were housed in the male prison estate. The other six in the female prison estate. In other words these six were legally male but had the gender identity of 'woman' and were protected by the EqA. They were risk assessed as being safe to be with women.
There were 11 prisoners with a GRC. We have no other data here to analyse.
None of this means that it was the case that 70% of 230 prisoners were sex offenders housed in the women's prison estate. The
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