Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

The MOJ report counts people as trans if they say they are trans, Classic, regardless of their legal/birth sex. I thought this was what you two agreed with? It's the much demanded self ID.

187 transgender prisoners identified their gender as legally male. Of these 181 were housed in the male prison estate. The other six in the female prison estate. In other words these six were legally male but had the gender identity of 'woman' and were protected by the EqA.

The fact they were in the female estate doesn't mean that at all. You are protected by the EA at any point in your transition. Their being in the female estate doesn't mean those who weren't were not being acknowledged as having the gender identity of 'woman' at all. Nowhere does it say that.

They were risk assessed as being safe to be with women.

That doesn't mean the ones that were refused a place in the women's estate weren't acknowledged as being trans.

There were 11 prisoners with a GRC. We have no other data here to analyse.

Correct. But not only those with a GRC are trans and we do have data about the non GRC transgender prisoners. AND IT'S NOT VERY NICE.

None of this means that it was the case that 70% of 230 prisoners were sex offenders housed in the women's prison estate. The data makes it clear this was never the case, and to say otherwise is a lie.

Nobody has ever claimed that all the 230 trans prisoners were housed in the women's estate. Again, you're making out something that wasn't claimed in the first place.

 

[monkers]

The MOJ report counts people as trans if they say they are trans, Classic, regardless of their legal/birth sex. I thought this was what you two agreed with? It's the much demanded self ID.

It doesn't. It counts people as 'trans' if they have a GRC.

 

[classic33]

The MOJ report counts people as trans if they say they are trans, Classic, regardless of their legal/birth sex. I thought this was what you two agreed with? It's the much demanded self ID.

The report uses the wording transgender, not trans.
"For the purposes of this report, transgender prisoners are defined as those individuals known within
prison to be currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their legal gender6 and who
have had a local case board (as defined by ‘The Care and Management of Individuals who are
Transgender’ policy framework7
) and is known to the diversity and inclusion lead within the
individual prison where they are housed."

From page 7 of the report linked to earlier.

 

[monkers]

The fact they were in the female estate doesn't mean that at all. You are protected by the EA at any point in your transition. Their being in the female estate doesn't mean those who weren't were not being acknowledged as having the gender identity of 'woman' at all. Nowhere does it say that.

Incorrect.

Trans people are eligible to be in the prison estate according to their amended birth certificate. This right comes from the GRA, not just the EqA.

Those people who are gender incongruent but do not have a GRC are not protected by the GRA; they remain legally their birth sex. They are protected from discrimination under the EqA.

The wording in the Ministry document is quite clear on this.

 

[monkers]

Correct. But not only those with a GRC are trans and we do have data about the non GRC transgender prisoners. AND IT'S NOT VERY NICE.

Incorrect.

In the MoJ's sorting system, only those with a GRC are 'trans'.

In the MoJ's system transgender prisoners are not in the same cohort as trans.

Now look. Think. Unsurprisingly the Ministry of Justice has to sort prisoners according to their rights. That means that under the law, they have to sort prisoners into one of six categories. But don't forget that there are mechanisms including panels and risk-assessment that allows the prison service to move people between cohorts on a safety-first basis.

Cisgender men
Cisgender women
Gender incongruent legally male people
Gender incongruent legally female people

These four cohorts are protected under the EqA.

Trans men with a GRC
Trans women with a GRC

These cohorts are protected under the GRA and the EqA since their legal sex is on their birth certificates.

Keeping to the same order, the MoJ reports reduce the six cohorts to five by combining the the two trans cohorts to one

men
women
transgender females (or transgender women)
transgender males (or transgender men)
trans people

None of this is my idea or my work. I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with their system, just telling you how it is.

You may not like it; take it up with the Ministry.

 

[monkers]

70% of trans in prison have committed sexual offences way higher than normal

Is there a sexual fettish element?

Nobody has ever claimed that all the 230 trans prisoners were housed in the women's estate. Again, you're making out something that wasn't claimed in the first place.

When Andy was challenged, you waded in with your Daily Torybile contribution as if to defend him, at the same time introducing the idea that there are large numbers of unsafe male prisoners in women's gaols. These are lies that you continue to propagate.

Have you produced evidence that 70% of trans prisoners 'have committed sexual offences'? Have you answered the questions that I posed to Andy?

I'd say no and no.

All you've done is willfully misunderstand the MoJ report, and project your distaste for their language and sorting system on to me as if I am the author. I assure you I am not.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Get some sleep, its not that important that you lay awake to the early hours fretting over some trivial data

 

[AndyRM]

Get some sleep, its not that important that you lay awake to the early hours fretting over some trivial data

Says the guy who's routinely on here early doors after milking his bull and petting his ferrets to share the latest nonsense from GBeebies...

 

[Deleted member 121]

Imagine my disappointment to see Andy has posted here and then clicking to find he is actually dishing out health advice instead of the latest from X-files....

 

[AndyRM]

I heard about the OMG Yes website yesterday - https://start.omgyes.com/

Seems like a pretty impressive resource and I'm surprised that it's only got 1 million users.

But then I suppose Maude called it right in The Big Lebowski...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMbc1Q2OQ4

 

[monkers]

Get some sleep, its not that important that you lay awake to the early hours fretting over some trivial data

Don't fret, I can do this simple stuff in my sleep. It must have been simple that even you can now see that you've been spouting complete bollocks all this time.

Most people are smart enough to click the top box, not the bottom one. How easily you've been CAPTCHA'd.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Says the guy who's routinely on here early doors after milking his bull and petting his ferrets to share the latest nonsense from GBeebies...

I'm new money farmer, Ive got staff for those trivial tasks

 

[AndyRM]

I'm new money farmer, Ive got staff for those trivial tasks

Ah, so you've essentially cucked yourself. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Incorrect. In the MoJ's sorting system, only those with a GRC are 'trans'. In the MoJ's system transgender prisoners are not in the same cohort as trans.

Not true. They are simply differentiating between trans people with a GRC and those without. They still use the term 'transgender' for the 230+ without GRCs.

That is very different from saying that those without a GRC aren't trans.

What a lot of effort to try to escape the fact men who say they are trans have a higher offending rate.

Honestly, it would be far easier to state the obvious. Some men have a fetish, and some will try to game the prison system and claim to be trans. But you can't say that because it throws up the whole question of such men pretending to be women in order to access women's other spaces.

 

[monkers]

Not true. They are simply differentiating between trans people with a GRC and those without. They still use the term 'transgender' for the 230+ without GRCs.

That is very different from saying that those without a GRC aren't trans.

What a lot of effort to try to escape the fact men who say they are trans have a higher offending rate.

Honestly, it would be far easier to state the obvious. Some men have a fetish, and some will try to game the prison system and claim to be trans. But you can't say that because it throws up the whole question of such men pretending to be women in order to access women's other spaces.

You're an idiot. I've patiently explained how the system works and the labels used by the MoJ.

They are not my labels, it is not my system.

They sift prisoners according to their rights under the GRA and the EqA - then they use risk assessment and panel controls.

You will just resort to trying anything to being proved not just wrong but willfully obstructive to truth.