Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

Something for the phobes in here to chew on:
https://x.com/topsyscatmum/status/1764693397451722816?s=20

Nobody is asking for the right to bully people who are different at work. Today that employee would quite rightly be protected by the Equality Act.

There's a balance to be made between the demands of transactivists and other people's rights.

 

[icowden]

Something for the phobes in here to chew on:
https://x.com/topsyscatmum/status/1764693397451722816?s=20

Firstly, I don't think there are any "phobes" involved in the discussion. I haven't seen anyone post on here that transwomen or men make them fearful or anxious. In fact quite a few people have posted that there are no issues with supporting people who believe they are trans to live in the way they want to live, to not be bullied and to be supported.

What people *have* posted is that that support does not include riding roughshod over the rights of other groups and we need to remember that one group of people's wellbeing does not magically trump another groups. There is a lot of middle ground to find which is made harder by the group of people who would kill TERFS and shut down any conversation about how best to support people.

The recent discussion about crime reporting and violence by men is about this:-
https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1762187612352020860?s=20

The pandering to political correctness that insists the reporting around this crime portrays it as a crime by a woman and not a man. There is an excellent rebuttal to the Guardian's reporting further up JK's twitter feed.

 

[multitool]

No phobe admits to being a phobe, just as no racist admits to being racist. They are just convinced they are right.

Rhetoric around "not being fearful or anxious" is disingenuous as you very well know.

 

[AuroraSaab]

No misogynist admits to being a misogynist either. Promoting the narrative of vulnerable people commiting suicide is also a disingenuous, and abhorrent, way of emotionally blackmailing women to cave in to giving certain men what they want without any discussion.

 

[multitool]

Its not a narrative.

It actually happened.

Unlike your fake moral panic.

 

[icowden]

Its not a narrative.
It actually happened.

As far as I am aware there is no study that supports this.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Men in women's single sex spaces whether it's changing rooms, prisons, or sports, isn't a fake moral panic. That you promote an incidence of suicide due to workplace bullying from 40 years ago as a supporting argument for men being given access to these things is repugnant. It's emotional blackmail.

It's possible to treat people with respect and uphold their rights against discrimination whilst acknowledging that women are allowed their own things.

 

[monkers]

Firstly, I don't think there are any "phobes" involved in the discussion. I haven't seen anyone post on here that transwomen or men make them fearful or anxious. In fact quite a few people have posted that there are no issues with supporting people who believe they are trans to live in the way they want to live, to not be bullied and to be supported.

What people *have* posted is that that support does not include riding roughshod over the rights of other groups and we need to remember that one group of people's wellbeing does not magically trump another groups. There is a lot of middle ground to find which is made harder by the group of people who would kill TERFS and shut down any conversation about how best to support people.

The recent discussion about crime reporting and violence by men is about this:-
https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1762187612352020860?s=20

The pandering to political correctness that insists the reporting around this crime portrays it as a crime by a woman and not a man. There is an excellent rebuttal to the Guardian's reporting further up JK's twitter feed.

It's isn't a clash of rights at all Ian.

The law says that transgender women without a GRC are legally male. There is no human right to have male crime recorded as female crime or vice versa.

Trans people who have a GRC are another matter. Their rights have been enshrined in law for two decades. There is no reason to discriminate against this cohort since, as @AurorSaab has agreed, there is no evidence that this cohort are offending against female prisoners.

While the police say that they have recorded this as female crime, the MoJ and prison service will record this as in their male stats. The police do seem out of kilter on this. We need a consistent system with consistent terminology. This will lead to greater public understanding and less bigotry. The trouble is that the government relish the chaos for their own political ends - and that is where our attention needs to be focussed.

 

[monkers]

Men in women's single sex spaces whether it's changing rooms, prisons, or sports, isn't a fake moral panic. That you promote an incidence of suicide due to workplace bullying from 40 years ago as a supporting argument for men being given access to these things is repugnant. It's emotional blackmail.

It's possible to treat people with respect and uphold their rights against discrimination whilst acknowledging that women are allowed their own things.

Calling people who are legally female and women 'men' is invoking a moral panic. I think you must know it.

 

[monkers]

 

[AuroraSaab]

Calling people who are legally female and women 'men' is invoking a moral panic. I think you must know it.

What about the ones who don't have a GRC? Having a piece of paper doesn't change your sex. It simply says you should be treated as that sex, though not without certain exceptions. Correctly sexing people is not a moral panic.

 

[icowden]

The law says that transgender women without a GRC are legally male. There is no human right to have male crime recorded as female crime or vice versa.

And yet the story was reported as a crime perpetrated by a woman even though the criminal did not have a GRC.

Trans people who have a GRC are another matter. Their rights have been enshrined in law for two decades. There is no reason to discriminate against this cohort since, as @AurorSaab has agreed, there is no evidence that this cohort are offending against female prisoners.

I entirely agree with you on that. I don't think that anyone who has spent the time going through the process to get a certificate has done so frivolously.

While the police say that they have recorded this as female crime, the MoJ and prison service will record this as in their male stats.

This was less about how it will be recorded and more about how it *was* reported. Initially outlets were too scared of causing offence to report that the violent offender was male.

The police do seem out of kilter on this. We need a consistent system with consistent terminology. This will lead to greater public understanding and less bigotry. The trouble is that the government relish the chaos for their own political ends - and that is where our attention needs to be focussed.

And I agree with you again.

 

[monkers]

And yet the story was reported as a crime perpetrated by a woman even though the criminal did not have a GRC.

The courts manual says that people should be addressed in their preferred identity. For the purposes of the court in such a crime, the personal characteristics of the person should not have effect on the outcome. There is nothing wrong with that. What we witnessed was a reaction akin to a moral panic from the usual suspects due to the lack of information.

From the point that I entered this thread, #918, I cautioned that the word 'transgender' is problematic. Although subsequently challenged by one poster here, the Ministry of Justice used the appropriate language. They use the term 'transgender prisoners' for those prisoners who are incongruent, ie without a GRC. Otherwise for those with a GRC, they treat them as cisgender, since that it is what is enshrined in the GRA; whilst at the same time they exercise their right to use discretion to depart from that under exceptional circumstances.

The press in the position of ignorance of the status of the prisoner, could reasonably report this as unknown without fear or favour, but they choose not to. Some arms of the press, most in fact, care about selling newspapers, and if that means joining the government's culture war, they will be complicit.

 

[monkers]

What about the ones who don't have a GRC?

Under the GRA they are one group, they remain the same sex as their original birth certificate. Under the EqA there are two groups, those who are in transition, and those who are not.

Those who have no legal protection from either act are people the majority of people under the transgender umbrella who identify with their birth sex with congruent gender identity ie they are people who like to cross dress. Ask one hundred of these people why they like to do it, and you'll likely receive a hundred different answers, so it is unwise to speculate. For many it is sexually motivated, while for many others it is not. Some will be 'in the closet' - it is just something they do at home. They are various degrees of 'being out'.

Inevitably cross dressing is something that trans people with a GRC tend to do before transition, while I think the majority of cross dressing men will tell you that they have no ambition to transition.

Speaking as a lesbian, I cross-dressed a number of times when going out to clubs in my younger days - and I 'pulled' too. On other occasions I went to bed with cross dressed women. I enjoyed it, it was fun. We shouldn't ban fun, or be uptight with people who want to have fun. Live and let live eh.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Speaking as a lesbian, I cross-dressed a number of times when going out to clubs in my younger days - and I 'pulled' too. On other occasions I went to bed with cross dressed women. I enjoyed it, it was fun. We shouldn't ban fun, or be uptight with people who want to have fun. Live and let live eh.

Ive said that, others have too.

What, trans are trying to do is get everyone to subscribe to their way of life, words, access to areas that should not be allowed for the opposite sex.