Gender again. Sorry!

[icowden]

Well there are those of us who just want to leave people alone to live their best lives. Then there's those who want to remove the human rights of others for no good reason at all, though they are prepared to waste their own lives sitting indoors at a keyboard all day without a well-reasoned argument. People claiming to be 'following the science' while not having the first idea of the universal scientific method.

I'm not sure anyone wants to remove anyone else's human rights, only to ensure that we have, and retain equality for *all* groups.

When people like myself, who have lived the life, have something to say, we are shouted down.

Again, I agree with you that this is wrong, but I don't agree that it's wrong to try gaining more understanding by challenging you at times. I have often found your input and that of N interesting, helpful and genuinely insightful.

What this means is that the truth doesn't matter when it doesn't fit the anti-trans ideology.

I can't speak for AS, but my take is that sometimes it can be hard, or nigh on impossible to discover what the actual truth is.

The scientific evidence on puberty blockers doesn't even say what you think it says - that much is very clear.

I found a few more interesting write ups by the way. Although there is a suggestion that hormone blockers can cause bone density loss, there isn't strong evidence to suggest that it is causing issues for transwomen, and as yet, due to lack of long term studies, no clear understanding as to why it may or may not be. That doesn't mean that some caution should not be exercised. That said, I still question the use of surgery and / or hormone blockers as a therapeutic solution, particularly for young people. I will point out that by the same token, I disagree with plastic surgery except in cases of reconstruction after injury or to mitigate severe health impacts (e.g. breast reduction when clinically indicated due to undue mass putting strain on the skeleton and causing QOL issues).

 

[monkers]

It's not secret. I'm top 1% but my membership lapsed...

FWIW, I have led many lives, but you do learn quite a lot about different medical disciplines from working as a Medical PA for 15 years or so, and then even more from working with all disciplines to analyse and migrate their data between different medical systems for the next 12 years or so. Therefore I like to think I have learned a fair bit about health in the last 30 years.

I'm not sure where this bizarre notion comes from that you can only understand or have knowledge about a subject if you have a qualification in it.

It becomes clear just how misguided you are when you claim stuff about puberty blockers, then provide a link to research that doesn't support your claims.

When you consider research from the USA, you can not simply then apply the findings directly to the UK for very good reasons. What is required is some thinking that joins the dots. That thinking is not coming from gender critical idealogues.

 

[monkers]

I'm not sure anyone wants to remove anyone else's human rights, only to ensure that we have, and retain equality for *all* groups.

Again, I agree with you that this is wrong, but I don't agree that it's wrong to try gaining more understanding by challenging you at times. I have often found your input and that of N interesting, helpful and genuinely insightful.


I can't speak for AS, but my take is that sometimes it can be hard, or nigh on impossible to discover what the actual truth is.


I found a few more interesting write ups by the way. Although there is a suggestion that hormone blockers can cause bone density loss, there isn't strong evidence to suggest that it is causing issues for transwomen, and as yet, due to lack of long term studies, no clear understanding as to why it may or may not be. That doesn't mean that some caution should not be exercised. That said, I still question the use of surgery and / or hormone blockers as a therapeutic solution, particularly for young people. I will point out that by the same token, I disagree with plastic surgery except in cases of reconstruction after injury or to mitigate severe health impacts (e.g. breast reduction when clinically indicated due to undue mass putting strain on the skeleton and causing QOL issues).

Thank you for the kind words.

Equality for all groups requires occasional balancing of rights to be struck.

These are political decisions, and the reason we hope for functioning democracies throughout the world, and the reason we hope that intergovernmental organisations will step in when certain of their member states go rogue. At the moment the UK has gone rogue, first they took us out of the EU, now the ambition is to take us out of the ECtHr, then it will be from the Council of Europe, and finally from the UN. In other words we are on a trajectory to North Korea because once human rights are removed, much of the rest of the world will apply economic sanctions. Already pretty much of the rest of Europe is calling the UK 'TERF Island' because they recognise fascist-like alarmist hysteria for what it is.

As you know, although retaining a house here, N spends nearly all of her time in Europe. There isn't too much to keep her in the UK and once I'm gone, I doubt she'll return much at all. Europeans simply can not understand what has got in the heads of the English with this inward looking fascist-like nationalistic populist agenda. Poland has relieved itself of a similar problem, solved I hope by the election there of Donald Tusk. Fortunately, it has now had its day in the UK despite the slow-burning embers faintly glowing around the Reform Party.

 

[multitool]

I'm not sure anyone wants to remove anyone else's human rights, only to ensure that we have, and retain equality for *all* groups.

LOL at the naivety.

Those black-shirted men throwing sieg heils at Kellie-Jay Keen Minshull rallies just care about equality of rights. <Snort>

 

[monkers]

Well we're all armchair captains on here really, aren't we? Funny though that when the experts who really aren't armchair captains but academics and professionals assess the evidence and ban puberty blockers they are also dismissed as knowing f all.

We are indeed free to make our own observations.

My observation is this, the people making the most noise are not experts.

Philosophy is the art of using words to describe in the simplest, maybe purest, form of words. This can lead to reduction absurdum, with the use of razors such as Ockham's famous razor. It doesn't promote understanding, it promotes dismissal of anything other than something appears to be with nothing more than a glance - hardly science.

Stock is a philosopher, she has a Phd, she uses the name 'DocStock' on social media when advancing her views on scientific and medical matters, in some attempt to add credibility to her non-expert opinions. She failed among the international community of academic philosophers to gain support for her musing. They issued a strong rebuttal of her views believing them to be damaging.

Then there are professional psychologists such as Zucker who are members of the anti-trans movement.

I strongly disagree with these people, and not for their beliefs, but for their dishonesty.

We could make quite a list of academic anti-trans ideologues. What they have in common is that they have created an industry for themselves from which they profit.

Zucker and other psychologists have enjoyed handsome reward from conversion therapy practices. They are keen to protect their living.

Forstater is a tax expert, but somehow is considered some kind of expert in everything from feminism to endocrinology.

Rowling lives in a fantasy world writing fictional books with anti-trans narratives, denying aspects of the holocaust, and claiming people who believe it are in a fever dream - or something or other.

There's Posie Parker travelling the world calling politicians 'groomers' because they have a trans child.

This is what happens when hate is the narrative of the protection racket for dishonest operators, philosophers, psychologists, and politicians.

Then there are those who find appeal in the fascist-like propaganda that this generates.

 

[AuroraSaab]

When people like myself, who have lived the life, have something to say, we are shouted down.

Not true. The views of trans people have never had as much access to a public platform as they have today.

Your own favourite AS is to say, and to paraphrase, nobody is interested in your personal anecdotes. What this means is that the truth doesn't matter when it doesn't fit the anti-trans ideology.

What you want is for your lived experience to be considered more important, and given more weight, than other people's, such as women or detransitioners. Your 'truth' is a subjective opinion.

The scientific evidence on puberty blockers doesn't even say what you think it says - that much is very clear.

Here you go again, thinking you know better than the top tier medics of several European countries who have come to the same conclusion: in terms of their use in gender medicine the long term effects of puberty blockers are unknown/poorly researched and the benefits questionable.

Edit: can't be certain but I'm pretty sure the top medical authorities in Sweden, Finland, UK, and so on, didn't consult the wizard lady or Kathleen Stock when arriving at their decision on puberty blockers so no need to worry that it wasn't a decision based on science and evidence. It was.

 

[monkers]

Not true. The views of trans people have never had as much access to a public platform as they have today.

I don't happen to be a trans woman (though I've pretended it a couple of times to protect my niece - boring story - don't ask).

What you want is for your lived experience to be considered more important, and given more weight, than other people's, such as women or detransitioners. Your 'truth' is a subjective opinion.

Again, I am a woman.

Here you go again, thinking you know better than the top tier medics of several European countries who have come to the same conclusion: in terms of their use in gender medicine the long term effects of puberty blockers are unknown/poorly researched and the benefits questionable.

I don't disagree with those who say there is inadequate research. The point is that the routes to adequate research have not been there, and probably never will be. The voices of armchair amateurs and keyboard warriors saying they have doubts is not the path to truth'

Edit: can't be certain but I'm pretty sure the top medical authorities in Sweden, Finland, UK, and so on, didn't consult the wizard lady or Kathleen Stock when arriving at their decision on puberty blockers so no need to worry that it wasn't a decision based on science and evidence. It was.

No but the select committee listened to Stock when she lied - thankfully it didn't influence them. In the ongoing crisis in funding for trans health care they recommended a change to self-Id (which Theresa May as then PM accepted).

Funny how your writing style suggests that I am not woman enough for you to consider my opinions and rights to them. Is there now a subset of womanhood based on anti-trans ideology? It's looking that way.

 

[monkers]

What you want is for your lived experience to be considered more important, and given more weight, than other people's, such as women or detransitioners. Your 'truth' is a subjective opinion.

My truth is reporting the lived experiences of my niece and her friends. I've accompanied them on trip to the GIC, sat in at GP appointments, been out shopping, to clubs etc. I've listened carefully to what they have said to me, and overhead their many conversations in my house.
I've provided a safe house for those at risk. I've taken in homeless gay and trans people when parents have kicked them out.

But yeh, you're the expert because you say so after reading masses of on-line bigotry.

 

[AuroraSaab]

(.... - boring story - don't ask).

Wasn't planning to.

Funny how your writing style suggests that I am not woman enough for you to consider my opinions and rights to them. Is there now a subset of womanhood based on anti-trans ideology? It's looking that way.

Everybody has a right to an opinion. I don't have to acquiesce to yours on the basis of your lived experience anymore than you have to acquiesce to mine.

There are no subsets of Women. It's just humans who were born female.

When you are talking about changing legislation and providing health care the arguments should stand and fall on their own merit, based on properly researched data and science.

 

[monkers]

There are no subsets of Women. It's just humans who were born female.

Then kindly stop writing as if I am somehow less so.

Not that I agree that trans people are less human, or that trans women are less of a woman for being trans.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I won't be taking any lessons from you on politeness, I'm afraid. I have no idea which of the 2 binary sex categories you fall into as I haven't seen your gametes (as you are so fond of saying) but it goes without saying that nobody is 'less' than anybody else, regardless of their sex.

 

[monkers]

I won't be taking any lessons from you on politeness, I'm afraid. I have no idea which of the 2 binary sex categories you fall into as I haven't seen your gametes (as you are so fond of saying) but it goes without saying that nobody is 'less' than anybody else, regardless of their sex.

Ok don't get your testicles in a knot.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Perhaps they are in a jar somewhere. I guess we'll never know. I'm always amused that you think I will be upset by being wrongly sexed though.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Riley Gaines is lead litigant in a group of athletes suing the NCAA and university of Georgia USA for not implementing title IX.

 

[classic33]

Riley Gaines is lead litigant in a group of athletes suing the NCAA and university of Georgia USA for not implementing title IX.

In June 1972, President Nixon signed Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 into law. Title IX is a comprehensive federal law that has removed many barriers that once prevented people, on the basis of sex, from participating in educational opportunities and careers of their choice. It states that:
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.