Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

Very, very few.

I know you are going to be all absolutist about it because that is what you do (after all, it's the only way you can build a case), but it will barely figure in the list of real concerns.

You've never even met a TW, so fûck knows where all the amazing TW athletes are.

 

[AndyRM]

Because it might say anonymous but women might still be wary that their details might be leaked. It think you underestimate how scared people are. It's why retired and older athletes are more able to speak out.
Additionally I think asking about eating disorders is probably quite triggering for some athletes.

I don't underestimate a thing. I get it. I've been involved in some pretty scary and invasive surveys and questionnaires, but my take, even in a vulnerable position, was if it's helping collate valuable data then it's worth it.

Two thirds not responding can't all be down to fear.

 

[icowden]

The weirdest thing about this article is this:-

There were 143 responses to the study overall. This means that while those uncomfortable on transgender participation in elite women's categories outnumbered those comfortable by 10 to one from the respondents, the results cannot be taken as representative of how elite British sportswomen feel across the board.

Apparently we can use random sampling to show everything from whether washing powder washes whiter to the probable results of a general election, but somehow the topic of transgender participation in elite women's categories is exempt.

Not only that but the suggestion is not that people might have avoided completing the questionnaire because they were afraid to speak out in favour of banning transwomen from women's sport, but that somehow it's those that think that it is fair to include transwomen are the ones that didn't fill in the survey!

 

[AuroraSaab]

I know you are going to be all absolutist about it because that is what you do (after all, it's the only way you can build a case), but it will barely figure in the list of real concerns.

It was concern enough for elite female cyclists to refuse to race if Emily Bridges was allowed to ride in the Women's category.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/transgender-cyclist-barred-competition/

Fairness is decided at the outset in sports, not by results. Whether it's doping or male advantage, it's not a question of 'It's fine because there's only X number winning medals'.

You've never even met a TW, so fûck knows where all the amazing TW athletes are.

That's the point. They're not amazing athletes. They are relatively mediocre male ones, only winning because they are in the Women's category. You think that's fine, many people don't.

Last week Kylie Small took First in the women's 3/4 race at the Maverick Classic Crit in Grand Junction, Colorado.

Best showing in the Male category was First in a beginner's race 2 years ago.

Small is the current USA Cycling Women's singlespeed cyclocross national champion.

Edit: Andy, the ratio of women surveyed who were unhappy competing against transwomen in the BBC survey is similar to what the rugby, athletics, swimming, and cycling UK governing bodies found when they surveyed their own athletes. Also, the BBC survey included men who compete in the Women's category. The number of women who were 'uncomfortable' (110) might be an underestimate percentage wise as the 11 who were 'comfortable' could all have been men.

 

[AndyRM]

Another hormone treatment topic from the survey in a bit more depth:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/68631176

I'd actually forgotten about the combined pill as an option, especially in terms of the control it gives over cycles; it seemed a much more common thing in the US but that's probably just my perception.

The ACL thing seems a bit tenuous to me. It's a pretty common injury for a part of the body under stress in even fairly mundane situations.

 

[farfromtheland]

Hi Farfromtheland

N here- the niece of monkers and a woman with a long trans history. Thank you for an interesting post.

You may have in mind what Monkers has said about philosophers. She often says that she is frustrated by some modern day academic philosophers who will abuse their position and bastardise the art of true philosophy. She complains that the use of false dichotomies, deceptive argument, application of razors, etc are willfully and skillfully applied to produce what is taken for persuasive argument. I see her point and am inclined to agree with her.

I agree with you concerning the Trans / Terf dichotomy being a false one. The argument is a chiefly a political one between groups of people concerning the rights of trans people. Personally I am not involved in argument with those campaigning for the removal or reduction of the human rights of trans people.

The body dysmorphia presentation is a false one. I have never personally met with any person with a trans history who subscribes to the view that their brain was 'allocated', so to speak, to a wrong body. This is an intended misdirection which stems from a now somewhat hackneyed line that intended some promotion of understanding. I don't believe it was ever intended to be literal. In the past some trans people have said, to paraphrase them, ''imagine being trapped in the wrong body''. Misdirection is then applied to produce the line ''born in the wrong body'' with attempts to further ridicule trans people.

There is no one person who can speak for all people with some degree of gender variance, and I will not attempt it. Over time there have been any number of personal stories which bring about a set of the more common narratives. None of us have exactly the same drivers, be they related to our overall sense of self, be that sexual or social, together or in varying proportions.

This is exemplified in the range of manifestations experienced and the responses to them. Within my own circle of friends, there is diverse range of responses to their experiences in terms of treatments opted for, treatments rejected, along with the whole range of preferences for sexual partners. The attempt to fit all trans people into boxes to say they are ''all like this'' is not simply a failure to understand, but a strategy to demonise all trans people as desperate and dangerous. It is very easy to identify those utilising this strategy; they tend to be the busiest and loudest of people. They are easily spotted on this thread. The 'protection of women and girls' is a ruse. Women and girls will invariably be on the receiving end treatments ranging from unwelcome attention to the most extreme forms of violent and sexual abuses at some point in their lives. Typically this will come from cisgender men and women, but also in a very small number of cases from trans people; what you may consider to be outlier cases which through alarmist measures become headline cases.

I must end here, having not given myself time to read this back it must stand as it is, errors and all.

Thank you, N, for a nuanced and perceptive reply.

I myself think that Trans/Terf arguments have been magnified to points of absurdity, with the result that oppressed people are polarised rather than working in solidarity.

I am sorry now that my 'wrong body' question was phrased that way. I don't think I was influenced by misdirection though, and definitely not trying to fit trans people into a box. My point is that body image and gender presentation are mediated by society's ideas of desirable gender image. These norms are not mine. I don't think that way and i think that makes me a gender critic.

Whatever people do to for happiness is their choice.

Yet I am horrified by the possibility that young people are influenced into feeling bad, and acting to change or present themselves differently because they do not conform to convention, however widely followed (and more so if ubiquitous.)

What I am asking is would gender and gender's presentation or declaration be so vitally important if we can positively change society's ideas of normal and massively broaden the spectrum so that gender expectation within us is minimised?

 

[Deleted member 159]

Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. Lawyer for DEFRA was being sued for saying only women can menstruate.

This case has now been dropped just before the tribunal. The case was brought against her and the department of Defra by another member of Defra.

Sex based comments are well and truly cemented in free and open speech in the work place.

 

[AndyRM]

Tough day keeping your bulls and otters in check then? You're normally quicker off the mark with these "well it's just common sense" cases which confirm your viewpoints so splendidly.

Wrigley is a funny name for a lawyer though, so thanks for the laugh.

 

[AndyRM]

More detail from the survey:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/68542035

The boat weight thing I thought was interesting, I'd not thought of that before. I wonder if cricket bats for women are manufactured to different specs? I know that hockey sticks, for example, only differ in length and colouring but you're not swinging that like a cricket bat so it's less of an issue.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. Lawyer for DEFRA was being sued for saying only women can menstruate.

This case has now been dropped just before the tribunal. The case was brought against her and the department of Defra by another member of Defra.

Sex based comments are well and truly cemented in free and open speech in the work place.

I think there's more to it thant that:

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/gender-critical-employee-network-defra-seen-duemmer-wrigley/

 

[AuroraSaab]

The fact that European Male is considered the default for pretty much everything from medical research to seatbelts to all sorts of equipment, including sports gear, is the subject of Caroline Criado Perez's book, Invisible Women. Comes round on Kindle at 99p every so often and is well worth a read.

 

[AndyRM]

The fact that European Male is considered the default for pretty much everything from medical research to seatbelts to all sorts of equipment, including sports gear, is the subject of Caroline Criado Perez's book, Invisible Women. Comes round on Kindle at 99p every so often and is well worth a read.

I've read Do it Like a Woman which is fantastic, keep meaning to pick that one up, ta for the reminder.

 

[multitool]

This makes for interesting reading:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Lister-v-New-College-Swindon.pdf

It's the tribunal report for Kevin Lister, the Swindon teacher, who claims he was unfairly dismissed for holding 'gender critical' views whilst working at a college in the town.

He lost. Why? Because, whilst it's perfectly legal to hold the views he holds, you cannot use them to treat others badly, humiliate them or endanger them, particularly in settings such as a school where you have a responsibility towards student welfare.

 

[Bromptonaut]

He lost. Why? Because, whilst it's perfectly legal to hold the views he holds, you cannot use them to treat others badly, humiliate them or endanger them, particularly in settings such as a school where you have a responsibility towards student welfare.

Hoorah!!

That's exactly what we said following the Forstater case.

Glad to see the courts have upheld it.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the judicial jungle.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-uk-court-case-over-legal-definition-of-woman