Gender again. Sorry!

[Ian H]

Getting distracting whilst tidying for the riders at the finish of today's event. From Mr Punch at the Play (1920s humour)-

 

[farfromtheland]

Beyond feminism

O'er the wide water there lies a broad field
of true companionship
where you can fark amongst the wheatstalks
stucktistic titties akimbo
and twiddle your diddle, top, bottom and middle
liberally peppered with pubes

There is no dry road, high or low
to take you to this clipper country though
©
----------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the thread...
I had in mind a lot of quotes to debunk, but my good old computer baulked at the memory load, so I'll have a go on the fly.

I think someone said that philosophy consists in rendering ideas in simplest terms. No. Philosophy is an attempt to apply sound reasoning to difficult and important questions - perhaps the anathema of social media.

I mentioned previously that I think the Trans/Terf dichotomy is a false one. Now 'GenderCritical' has been used as an insulting label too. Probably most of you are younger than me, so not lucky enough to grow up in the 60's and 70's when liberation movements felt within reach of fundamental change. My mum was a student in '68 and I read her books. She gave me an androgenous name. I was encouraged to think that there were no differences in expectations for girls or boys in work, dress or play. As far as I was concerned there was no essential difference in the brain. I don't want to be told now that I was wrong.

I don't want to be told that men are inherently louder or more violent either. If some are that way I believe it is because they have been 'socialised' into it.

When I went to secondary school I got a lot of flack for non-conformity - mostly from other girls. I stuck up for myself but it left me feeling bad. Who is to say how much we are influenced when very young to conform to other people's ideas of gender or sexuality, and feel bad much sooner and deeper?

So I ask if gender dysphoria is an unmediated phenomenon? Can every young person who feels bad about their body image be sure that is because they are in the wrong body, or could it be that the new media plus their near ones' conscious or unconscious bias has got into their mind? Dangerous question in these times but I ask it. Unless we can change society and make it a free field of play we may never know.

In either case could we not more actively try to be better to each other? People are using personal abuse as a debating substitute. Hoist by our own petards. This is not going to forward tolerance or liberation.

 

[monkers]

Beyond feminism

O'er the wide water there lies a broad field
of true companionship
where you can fark amongst the wheatstalks
stucktistic titties akimbo
and twiddle your diddle, top, bottom and middle
liberally peppered with pubes

There is no dry road, high or low
to take you to this clipper country though
©
----------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the thread...
I had in mind a lot of quotes to debunk, but my good old computer baulked at the memory load, so I'll have a go on the fly.

I think someone said that philosophy consists in rendering ideas in simplest terms. No. Philosophy is an attempt to apply sound reasoning to difficult and important questions - perhaps the anathema of social media.

I mentioned previously that I think the Trans/Terf dichotomy is a false one. Now 'GenderCritical' has been used as an insulting label too. Probably most of you are younger than me, so not lucky enough to grow up in the 60's and 70's when liberation movements felt within reach of fundamental change. My mum was a student in '68 and I read her books. She gave me an androgenous name. I was encouraged to think that there were no differences in expectations for girls or boys in work, dress or play. As far as I was concerned there was no essential difference in the brain. I don't want to be told now that I was wrong.

I don't want to be told that men are inherently louder or more violent either. If some are that way I believe it is because they have been 'socialised' into it.

When I went to secondary school I got a lot of flack for non-conformity - mostly from other girls. I stuck up for myself but it left me feeling bad. Who is to say how much we are influenced when very young to conform to other people's ideas of gender or sexuality, and feel bad much sooner and deeper?

So I ask if gender dysphoria is an unmediated phenomenon? Can every young person who feels bad about their body image be sure that is because they are in the wrong body, or could it be that the new media plus their near ones' conscious or unconscious bias has got into their mind? Dangerous question in these times but I ask it. Unless we can change society and make it a free field of play we may never know.

In either case could we not more actively try to be better to each other? People are using personal abuse as a debating substitute. Hoist by our own petards. This is not going to forward tolerance or liberation.

Hi Farfromtheland

N here- the niece of monkers and a woman with a long trans history. Thank you for an interesting post.

You may have in mind what Monkers has said about philosophers. She often says that she is frustrated by some modern day academic philosophers who will abuse their position and bastardise the art of true philosophy. She complains that the use of false dichotomies, deceptive argument, application of razors, etc are willfully and skillfully applied to produce what is taken for persuasive argument. I see her point and am inclined to agree with her.

I agree with you concerning the Trans / Terf dichotomy being a false one. The argument is a chiefly a political one between groups of people concerning the rights of trans people. Personally I am not involved in argument with those campaigning for the removal or reduction of the human rights of trans people.

The body dysmorphia presentation is a false one. I have never personally met with any person with a trans history who subscribes to the view that their brain was 'allocated', so to speak, to a wrong body. This is an intended misdirection which stems from a now somewhat hackneyed line that intended some promotion of understanding. I don't believe it was ever intended to be literal. In the past some trans people have said, to paraphrase them, ''imagine being trapped in the wrong body''. Misdirection is then applied to produce the line ''born in the wrong body'' with attempts to further ridicule trans people.

There is no one person who can speak for all people with some degree of gender variance, and I will not attempt it. Over time there have been any number of personal stories which bring about a set of the more common narratives. None of us have exactly the same drivers, be they related to our overall sense of self, be that sexual or social, together or in varying proportions.

This is exemplified in the range of manifestations experienced and the responses to them. Within my own circle of friends, there is diverse range of responses to their experiences in terms of treatments opted for, treatments rejected, along with the whole range of preferences for sexual partners. The attempt to fit all trans people into boxes to say they are ''all like this'' is not simply a failure to understand, but a strategy to demonise all trans people as desperate and dangerous. It is very easy to identify those utilising this strategy; they tend to be the busiest and loudest of people. They are easily spotted on this thread. The 'protection of women and girls' is a ruse. Women and girls will invariably be on the receiving end treatments ranging from unwelcome attention to the most extreme forms of violent and sexual abuses at some point in their lives. Typically this will come from cisgender men and women, but also in a very small number of cases from trans people; what you may consider to be outlier cases which through alarmist measures become headline cases.

I must end here, having not given myself time to read this back it must stand as it is, errors and all.

 

[multitool]

Uh oh...

https://x.com/Pollik/status/1772158051241316650?s=20

 

[AndyRM]

I like Rayner for a lot of reasons, she definitely makes a good foil to Starmer.

I read this article which consulted elite athletes in the UK, about a variety of subjects but also the participation of trans athletes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/68564019

As it came from the BBC I have a degree of trust that the questions weren't leading or confusingly put. I wonder how much of the survey was about the issue too. Less than a third of respondents also seems quite poor for a fairly wide reaching survey.

 

[icowden]

Linehan is having a mad one again

Slightly unfair to quote a single line which is in response to something else. Why not quote the whole conversation? Or provide a link?

 

[multitool]

Slightly unfair to quote a single line which is in response to something else. Why not quote the whole conversation? Or provide a link?

It's easy enough for you to find the conversation yourself on twitter. But in fact the context isn't particularly relevant for the point I was making, which was the extreme misogyny of the Anti-trans movement, which denies women agency, and independent thought if they dare disagree with the hate-driven cultists.

So called GC is very far from being a feminist movement. That's why they attract actual overt nazis, and pretty much every right-wing ghoul.

 

[icowden]

It's easy enough for you to find the conversation yourself on twitter.

Actually it isn't. I did look. Twitter refuses to go in date order these days,

But in fact the context isn't particularly relevant for the point I was making, which was the extreme misogyny of the Anti-trans movement, which denies women agency, and independent thought if they dare disagree with the hate-driven cultists.

OK, it didn't make your point as it wasn't at all apparent what Glinner was talking about or why. He may have been being sarcastic or not. Without context it's impossible to know.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There's no sign Linehan was stopping the woman you quote from speaking. He was criticising her stance of 'guilt by association'.
In what way has he denied her her right to speak or denied her agency as you claim?

You don't hold back from criticising women you don't agree with. Why are other men not free to do the same?

The side who try to stop women meeting and speaking together, often by violence and intimidation, is the trans activist side.

 

[icowden]

Finally found it. Some thoughts.

"Handmaiden" is the cult code these ârseholes use to denigrate women. Pure misogyny.

And inaccurate. As far as I can see, they use it to denigrate only women who support the TRA radicals.

"Let Women Speak!" -"No! Not those ones!"

Given that the person he was responding to was complaining that letting women speak shouldn't be allowed if the speaker system belongs to a guy who goes to that location every week, but may or may not be a neo-nazi*, I would submit that both sides here are suggesting that only *some* women be allowed to speak.

Can you imagine holding up a mirror to these absolute loons and, in a rare moment of perspicacity, them being able to see themselves as the rest of the world does.

Which loons are you talking about? The women being silenced or the women trying to silence women they don't agree with?

*Quote from a local: He is not a neo Nazi. Been there every Saturday with his pa system and supporters for years. Protesting Dan and vax.

 

[AuroraSaab]

As it came from the BBC I have a degree of trust that the questions weren't leading or confusingly put. I wonder how much of the survey was about the issue too. Less than a third of respondents also seems quite poor for a fairly wide reaching survey.

"Asked how they would feel speaking publicly on the topic, 96 said they felt uncomfortable or very uncomfortable".

That probably explains why only a third responded. I don't blame anybody who wants to avoid facing an avalanche of abuse for wanting fairness for women.

 

[AndyRM]

"Asked how they would feel speaking publicly on the topic, 96 said they felt uncomfortable or very uncomfortable".

That probably explains why only a third responded. I don't blame anybody who wants to avoid facing an avalanche of abuse for wanting fairness for women.

That's one specific part of what appears to be an anonymous survey on a wide range of issues for women. Nobody has been quoted, so why not respond?

 

[multitool]

I can see why female athletes would be concerned if they found themselves competing against a TW (in certain sports), but the good is that by and large (well almost entirely) they aren't.

 

[AuroraSaab]

That's one specific part of what appears to be an anonymous survey on a wide range of issues for women. Nobody has been quoted, so why not respond?

Because it might say anonymous but women might still be wary that their details might be leaked. It think you underestimate how scared people are. It's why retired and older athletes are more able to speak out.
Additionally I think asking about eating disorders is probably quite triggering for some athletes.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I can see why female athletes would be concerned if they found themselves competing against a TW (in certain sports), but the good is that by and large (well almost entirely) they aren't.

You could say the same for doped athletes but we don't dismiss doping as not a big deal. In fact in certain sports, like US cycling, there are quite a number of males winning in the Women's category. Several Women's Canadian power lifting records are held by 2 men atm.