Gender again. Sorry!

[AndyRM]

I was referring to Bromptonaut's view as given below, which to me suggests that he thinks entry into female spaces is somehow a reward for men who have made an effort. It's not about what anyone wears.

I was referring to a man invading a woman's space, where he doxxed people, which is pretty f*cking dangerous.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Here you go:

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org...stel-wing-over-hot-totty-remarks-court-hears/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...ostel-katie-dalatowski-furious-residents/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sc...prisoners-scotland-forced-shower-26863700.amp

Plenty of women complaining about sports, lesbian apps, being refused single sex care, incidents in changing rooms etc on social media.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I was referring to a man invading a woman's space, where he doxxed people, which is pretty f*cking dangerous.

I don't know what this is referring too. My reply was to your 'bold claim' comment.

 

[AndyRM]

I don't know what this is referring too. My reply was to your 'bold claim' comment.

I got my quoting muddled up, apologies.

Trans women (or men) aren't costuming.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I agree in general. There are no clothes, hairstyles, mannerisms, that have anything to do with what sex you are. Adhering to stereotypes means nothing.

 

[farfromtheland]

An interesting read -

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...antifeminism/A68AE6B1039EBF34F4640DA1FB47DACB

" Advancing historical, critical, and intersectional feminisms

[Aytek] Dibivar takes on a broad spectrum of challenges to feminism, including from within the neoliberal academy. She criticizes scholarship that fails to engage with historical, material, economic, political and social structures in different regions of the world and neglects the complex interplay between gender, race and class. Arguing against the tokenistic commodification of identity, generalizations and simplifications that ignore context and history, performative diversity politics, and demands for cultural comformity that shut down diverse opinion and experiences, Dibivar calls for ‘a decolonial social reproductive feminist theory"

There is a lot more there, and I would question some of it, but would like to hear others' thoughts?

 

[AuroraSaab]

What's the content of that theory though?

The article mentions 'soft law' which is very much the approach that certain campaigning groups take, also known as 'getting ahead of the law' by making people think the law is different from what it is. I think the attack on reproductive rights has a long history in the US and the move to the right in mainland Europe is more a coming together of several factors of which anti-feminism is just one. The undermining of Roe v Wade is something conservative US groups have been working on for at least 10 years.

The article is right about the UN. They're useless on women's rights eg Saudi Arabia have just been appointed as the Chair of the UN Commision on the Status of Women. That's just trolling ....

 

[multitool]

You're constantly saying self ID hasn't caused any problems in the countries that have introduced it yet you only want examples from a country that doesn't have it yet and still has protections for women under the Equality Act

Lie Number 1: I havent "constantly" said this. Ive asked you for evidence that there are significant problems in countries with SI, or indeed, an increase since SI. Still waiting.

Distortion Number 1: Im asking you for a examples for a specific situation in this country. You seem to be trying to do everything to avoid providing them

Suggests you aren't really interested in looking at anything that contradicts your view that all women are fine with men in their services and spaces.

Strawman Number 1: You've reached a conclusion based on your own distortions.

You can't seriously be suggesting that no UK women have complained about men competing in their sports category though?

Strawman Number 1: I havent suggested this.

Diversion Number 1: Why are you pivoting onto sports (again) when I'm asking you about UK Women's refuges?

It wouldn't matter that many have, would it? The bar for any of this stuff being a problem is set so high no infringement on women's rights would ever reach it. The idea of dealing with before it becomes a problem has similarly been dismissed by men on here so often that it's clear there's really nothing, literally nothing, that would give some of you guys pause for thought.

Continued irrelevant strawmanning.

Why are you trying to do anything you can to avoid answering the actual question I asked?

 

[farfromtheland]

What's the content of that theory though?

I rather hope that discussions like this can move more towards one, though Divibar seems to concentrate on critique, so far.

As I see it feminists can contribute by not dismissing trans-people's concerns in a climate of rising anti-feminism.
We must be careful not become identified with a general 'anti-gender' perspective. It is not helpful to insist on identifying trans-women as men (and v.v.) because this is too simply divisive, and fails to get to the underlying issues.

However, trans-activism/advocacy needs to be careful too, because we do have socially constructed gender roles and identities. Not biological essentialism but gender essentialism becomes the paradigm - as dangerous I think, and more subtle - if we run with the politically-correct left current.

While the rhetoric of the educated trans liberation movement is essentially feminist - demands equal opportunities, expresses support for women's liberation struggles in the developing world and for women's choice in reproductive rights everywhere - the most important things in my opinion - the idea that genders are different on a non-physical level is still problematic.

Gender is presented to (social) media consumers in an emotional influencing not a legal or rational framework.

Looking behind to the source of your above link -
https://4w.pub/female-prisoners-forced-to-share-showers-with-intact-males/
“Sending violent males to women’s prisons because they claim to be women is not a new policy,” said Patricia, a former prison governor who also have spoken previously with KPSS (her last name has been withheld to protect her safety). She told 4W that she has dealt with two such prisoners, “even before the introduction of the Gender Recognition Act 2004.” "Carla" had surgery and was not a sexual predator but he was violent, and a judge decided that he should be placed in a women's prison, while "Fifi" was a 55 year old male who "dressed as a little girl" and displayed "bouts of violent behavior," but was "very keen to spend time 'with the other girls,'" according to Patricia.

- maybe shows both problematic aspects. On the one hand the quote is misgendering a trans-woman, but the person described as 'Fifi' is presumably not genuine. If trans-advocates can appreciate these things happen it helps to find common ground

I am glad to see Andy saying how dangerous doxxing is.

 

[farfromtheland]

As a teacher I was asked by smirking seven year olds, 'Are you a girl or a boy, Miss?', to which I replied, 'Neither.' but the real question is how to make this small ask irrelevant.

Trans-women might also please consider that if to be trans is not a bad thing, which it isn't, there should ideally be no problem in being called a trans-woman. Clearly the world is not ideal but the fault is with society's prejudice. Let's resist it?

It is unfair to demand feminists embrace declared faith in inner gender difference but not expect trans-people to embrace that some people validly don't take it as axiomatic truth. As long as we are respectful it can be left undecided.

We need a more sophisticated synthesis - the spectrum of feminine/masculine is deeply complex, and may depend on a balance of hormonal, chromosomal and social environmental factors, but in any case it is a social straightjacket.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Lie Number 1: I havent "constantly" said this. Ive asked you for evidence that there are significant problems in countries with SI, or indeed, an increase since SI. Still waiting.

That's not really true, is it? You've been given numerous examples from jails to sport and everything in between.

Distortion Number 1: Im asking you for a examples for a specific situation in this country. You seem to be trying to do everything to avoid providing them.

I just gave you one. Fortunately most UK refuges are still keeping to the Equality Act and refusing admission to men. Most women will just self exclude if they can't be guaranteed a shared room or support group which is exclusively female of course but I'd rather they didn't have to.

You seem to be admitting you don't think there's a problem with men being admitted to women's refuges - which obviously means shared accommodation and therapy groups - which suggests there really aren't any red lines for you at all.

 

[AuroraSaab]

”"Carla" had surgery and was not a sexual predator but he was violent, and a judge decided that he should be placed in a women's prison, while "Fifi" was a 55 year old male who "dressed as a little girl" and displayed "bouts of violent behavior," but was "very keen to spend time 'with the other girls,'" according to Patricia.

- maybe shows both problematic aspects. On the one hand the quote is misgendering a trans-woman, but the person described as 'Fifi' is presumably not genuine.

1. There was a violent man placed in a women's prison and the bit that upsets you is the misgendering?

2. Why isn't Fifi genuine? This is self ID. How do we tell the genuine transwomen from the non genuine ones? Who gets to decide?

I am perplexed by the people on here (not necessarily you) who think you can't tell male from female when it comes to bodies in a changing room but they can tell genuine (whatever that even means) transwomen from non genuine (whatever that means) transwomen.

 

[farfromtheland]

1. There was a violent man placed in a women's prison and the bit that upsets you is the misgendering?

2. Why isn't Fifi genuine? This is self ID. How do we tell the genuine transwomen from the non genuine ones? Who gets to decide?

I am perplexed by the people on here (not necessarily you) who think you can't tell male from female when it comes to bodies in a changing room but they can tell genuine (whatever that even means) transwomen from non genuine (whatever that means) transwomen.

I was illustrating that misgendering is not helpful or necessary, whatever your perspective - the person was a transwoman and "not a sexual predator."

If we can trust the un-named former governor - moot point but the quote is illustrative - I think the idea of of Fifi "being very keen to spend time with the other girls" , as well as anatomically male, should have been the trigger for a risk assessment and exclusion from the women's estate.

Not all avowed trans-women are genuine, sadly, and not all feminists are unprejudiced either. Still all awkward decision making needs to be nuanced and made in context.

 

[multitool]

That's not really true, is it? You've been given numerous examples from jails to sport and everything in between.

No, you really haven't.

I just gave you one. Fortunately most UK refuges are still keeping to the Equality Act and refusing admission to men. Most women will just self exclude if they can't be guaranteed a shared room or support group which is exclusively female of course but I'd rather they didn't have to.

No you didn't

You seem to be admitting you don't think there's a problem with men being admitted to women's refuges - which obviously means shared accommodation and therapy groups - which suggests there really aren't any red lines for you at all.

Ah the old "seem" again.

STRAWMAN INCOMING!!!!

 

[farfromtheland]

There once was a tool of broad function
who argued the toss with such gumption
his spanner was thrown
to virtually hone
a pantomime row over lumps shown