Gender again. Sorry!

[multitool]

There once was a tool of broad function
who argued the toss with such gumption
his spanner was thrown
to virtually hone
a pantomime row over lumps shown

Well, of course it's a pantomime row.
That is the point of all my replies on this thread to AS.

If and when she wants to talk about real issues that matter to women (rather than a confected threarlt whipped up by weirdo cultists and co-opted by populist politicians) I'll be here.

 

[Rusty Nails]

As a teacher I was asked by smirking seven year olds, 'Are you a girl or a boy, Miss?', to which I replied, 'Neither.' but the real question is how to make this small ask irrelevant.

Trans-women might also please consider that if to be trans is not a bad thing, which it isn't, there should ideally be no problem in being called a trans-woman. Clearly the world is not ideal but the fault is with society's prejudice. Let's resist it?

It is unfair to demand feminists embrace declared faith in inner gender difference but not expect trans-people to embrace that some people validly don't take it as axiomatic truth. As long as we are respectful it can be left undecided.

We need a more sophisticated synthesis - the spectrum of feminine/masculine is deeply complex, and may depend on a balance of hormonal, chromosomal and social environmental factors, but in any case it is a social straightjacket.

I had to read this post a couple of times because I am so used to reading posts that are based on demonising people who do not 100% share their views. This is far too sensible and just about the first different take on the argument in over 13000 posts.

 

[multitool]

I'm not so sure that this view is so very different from that proposed in the thesis linked to in Claudine's OP. At least in envisaged outcome.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I'm not so sure that this view is so very different from that proposed in the thesis linked to in Claudine's OP. At least in envisaged outcome.

13203 posts ago. Before things turned pear-shaped.

 

[multitool]

It all happened 6 months before I joined, but I read the initial discussion and the academic piece linked and found it thought provoking. It ought to have been an interesting thought experiment in which people could have interrogated their own conceptions of the psycho-socio landscape within the safety of an academic context, and no real-world repercussions. Maybe a decade ago, before the rise of the anti-trans movement, it could have been.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Sports England has dumped Stonewall.

Other quangos are reviewing their connection to Stonewall

 

[Bromptonaut]

Do you think that most men who identify as women can pass as women? I could put you a hundred photos up but don't feel the need because it's not about how anybody looks, regardless of your belief that Woman is a costume that gives any man a free pass if they can wear it sufficiently well enough.

I know at least one who would. Similarly, but the other side of the coin, there's a Trans Man who I've met through work. The only way I know he's trans is that the first time we met he was at the stage in transition where he was physically, and by dress, androgynous. Others I agree, if they've not done the job properly or are early on in the process, might be in sore thumb territory.

If my former colleague Heather, who I've mentioned before, were being beaten in circs where refuge was appropriate then a she'd be entirely appropriate for a women's refuge.

If costume and 'free passes' are part of your lexicon then I think you're looking down the wrong telescope.

Prisons and sport I agree

 

[AndyRM]

Sports England has dumped Stonewall.

Other quangos are reviewing their connection to Stonewall

On the advice of Kemi Badenoch, an anti trans advocate and general homophobe.

Who's pushing their cultish ideology now?

Sport England, I believe, gave a tiny percentage of their funding to Stonewall, so I doubt they'll be arsed, though they probably will be concerned if others follow suit.

Still, so much for their claim in their Uniting the Movement manifesto of this:

"More than anything, it seeks to tackle the inequalities we’ve long seen in sport and physical activity. Providing opportunities to people and communities that have traditionally been left behind, and helping to remove the barriers to activity, has never been more important."

 

[AuroraSaab]

I know at least one who would.

They might not pass to others though. They might pass to men but not to women. Of course adhering to stereotypes sufficiently well to make some people think you are the opposite sex is neither here nor there when it comes to why we have single sex spaces for both men and women.

Others I agree, if they've not done the job properly or are early on in the process, might be in sore thumb territory.

What is the job exactly? Performing stereotypes of femininity?

If my former colleague Heather, who I've mentioned before, were being beaten in circs where refuge was appropriate then a she'd be entirely appropriate for a women's refuge.

Why? Why can't Heather be directed to services that cater for trans people? Some women who have been assaulted by men might feel very uncomfortable sitting next to Heather in a group session, never mind sharing a bedroom with them.

Would you agree that there should be provision that is women only and alongside that provision that is either transwomen only or which caters for both? Nobody has sought to deny trans people appropriate services, only that there are times when single sex care provision is essential. And it's not based on how you look or dress.

If costume and 'free passes' are part of your lexicon then I think you're looking down the wrong telescope.

Yet you frequently talk about how a transwoman looks as though it should make a difference to how they are treated. That suggests that you see 'feminine = Woman', which is rather insulting. And are the transwomen who are in 'sore thumb territory' (your words), not to be treated as women because they don't pass?

However anybody spins the gender identity thing it always comes down to sexist stereotypes in the end.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Why? Why can't Heather be directed to services that cater for trans people? Some women who have been assaulted by men might feel very uncomfortable sitting next to Heather in a group session, never mind sharing a bedroom with them.

My question was, and remains, how would they know?

Hypothetically, she too was assaulted by men.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Are you seriously saying you think no woman would ever think your colleague Heather was male? That they pass as female 100% to everybody, 100% of the time?

The thing is, which you don't seem to grasp, is that how Heather looks is not the issue. Which is why I say that women's spaces aren't rewards for men who pass. They aren't for men, however they look.

How about the refuge makes clear to applicants that they are only for women but will happily direct a trans person to a refuge that isn't?

Hypothetically, she too was assaulted by men.

Then you would think Heather would appreciate that someone who has also been assaulted wouldn't want to share a room or sit beside a male in therapy. Do those women's feelings not count? You seem to imagine that both having been harmed by men magically disappears a transwoman's maleness.

Btw, gay men can be assaulted by other men. Nobody would say this experience means it's fine for them to be in a women's group, though it's unlikely they would want to because they would acknowledge their experiences are not the same.

 

[AndyRM]

Somehow the kind of pish that Andy goes wild for cropped up on my social media earlier...

The comments are littered with pish like "Quite right" and "You go girl", sadly missing that Venus isn't either of the women pictured and it never happened.

 

[Deleted member 159]

Single sex lavatories will be compulsory in restaurant, bars, shopping centres and offices.

Building regulations will be changed to force all new or refurbished premises to adhere to this new code.

This is happening

 

[AndyRM]

Single sex lavatories were always compulsory for certain buildings.

There have always been gender neutral facilities.

This isn't new.

 

[multitool]

Well, at least women will be safer from people like Andy CXR