Gender again. Sorry!

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So was the UK to be fair. But we gloss over the nasty parts of our history with ridiculous regularity.

Our solution was often to put even mild special needs children in hospitals or homes from which they were never released, so having children was never an issue. Ireland's solution was the mother and baby homes. Better than eugenics but nothing to be proud of.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
No they (she wasn't the only author) weren't. Eugenics isn't mentioned anywhere in the study.

I think saying gender critical feminism is aligned with eugenics, seeing as most of the victims of Swedish eugenics were actual women, is your biggest stretch so far.

The years the study covered were an exact match for the years of the eugenics period of trans people. The study was a follow up study of the individuals who were abused by the programme. It was examining their welfare during this abuse.

It isn't only me that can see what you are attempting to defend.

The Swedish report was intending to demonstrate the unnecessary harms being inflicted on trans people in that period.

Consent was sought under a system of coercion. Attempting to avoid sterilisation was in itself a crime. And yet you wish to promote study as validation for your views. Well good for you; all opinions being equally valid and all that.

Further reading in Wiki ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilisation_in_Sweden
 
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monkers

Legendary Member
How would it even work as a safeguarding procedure? You don't need to be on surgery or hormones to get a GRC. You aren't allowed to ask if someone has a GRC, btw. So you can't know who has a GRC, or who has kept their genitals, but women are supposed to accept either as some sort of free pass?

It's true that an individual can not ask to see a person's GRC. However those making the risk assessments in prisons are authorised to ask for a GRC, and also authorised to otherwise get it from the GRP.
 
The years the study covered were an exact match for the years of the eugenics period of trans people.
The study was 2011. The average age of participants was 35 yrs, the oldest 69. The average participant in the study would have only just been born in 1976 when the eugenics programme ended.
Screenshot_20240605_182654_Chrome.jpg

It isn't only me that can see what you are attempting to defend. What? Eugenics? Just quoting this again because it shows how ridiculous you are.
The Swedish report was intending to demonstrate the unnecessary harms being inflicted on trans people in that period.

Was it? Links to where it says that? I think that will be news to the authors.
This is the objective as stated in the study:

Screenshot_20240605_185828_Chrome.jpg


You post things that are untrue but easily checkable to support some outlandish statement. It's laughable.

Consent was sought under a system of coercion. Attempting to avoid sterilisation was in itself a crime. And yet you wish to promote study as validation for your views. Well good for you; all opinions being equally valid and all ..

The study has nothing, I mean zero, to do with eugenics. It's purpose is literally given in the objectives. It does that without mentioning the words eugenics or sterilisation even once.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
The study was 2011. The average age of participants was 35 yrs, the oldest 69. The average participant in the study would have only just been born in 1976 when the eugenics programme ended.

Oh you're so wrong as usual.

The eugenics period for trans people started in 1972 and did not end until 2013. Part of the reason it ended was due to the Djeune et al report 2011.

This was going on until just 11 years ago.
 
1972 was the year when Sweden passed a law allowing people to change sex if they wished - but a requirement was to have undergone surgery and sterilisation. In 2013 this requirement was dropped.

How is that eugenics? You could call it coercion to some extent, but it wasn't enforced in the way that the sterilisation of special needs girls and women was in Sweden. If people chose not to have sex change surgery were they dragged from the streets and made to have it? They could have just not changed their legal gender and avoided it.

Just when I think this thread couldn't get more ridiculous you trump it. There's nothing that women and girls have been through that transwomen haven't had worse.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
1972 was the year when Sweden passed a law allowing people to change sex if they wished - but a requirement was to have undergone surgery and sterilisation. In 2013 this requirement was dropped.

How is that eugenics? You could call it coercion to some extent, but it wasn't enforced in the way that the sterilisation of special needs girls and women was in Sweden. If people chose not to have sex change surgery were they dragged from the streets and made to have it? They could have just not changed their legal gender and avoided it.

Just when I think this thread couldn't get more ridiculous you trump it. There's nothing that women and girls have been through that transwomen haven't had worse.

You are still defending a coerced eugenics programme. The sterilisation was not voluntary. An application to have ones legal gender requirement could then be made, however sex reassignment surgery was a condition. Why does everything have to be repeated to you endlessly, and then never accepted?
 
Our solution was often to put even mild special needs children in hospitals or homes from which they were never released, so having children was never an issue. Ireland's solution was the mother and baby homes. Better than eugenics but nothing to be proud of.
"Our solution" wasn't much better, even in the early 80's. And not that far from the Swedish approach. Being told that sterilisation is the only "acceptable way forward" for you isn't something I can forget being told. Cancer did what the state couldn't nearly twenty years later.

As for the Irish solution, do you mean the ones run by nuns(females), who weren't averse to handing out their own type of abuse. Just to make sure everyone knew who was in charge?
 

monkers

Legendary Member
1972 was the year when Sweden passed a law allowing people to change sex if they wished - but a requirement was to have undergone surgery and sterilisation. In 2013 this requirement was dropped.

How is that eugenics? You could call it coercion to some extent, but it wasn't enforced in the way that the sterilisation of special needs girls and women was in Sweden. If people chose not to have sex change surgery were they dragged from the streets and made to have it? They could have just not changed their legal gender and avoided it.

Just when I think this thread couldn't get more ridiculous you trump it. There's nothing that women and girls have been through that transwomen haven't had worse.

N here.

I have no wish to have extensive engagement with you Aurora, but I note your means of dragging people in.

This forum is not testimony or witness statement, you have sworn no oath. However if you wish to discuss such things in good faith, there is the requirement of honesty.

The eugenics programme had several strands, The introduction to law, and their endings of these strands had different timings (date ranges).

It is important for you to understand the basis on which the study was produced. Yes, it was published in 2011, however the data was obtained from historic court records covering the whole of that period - not the year 2011. So I have to inform you that narrative you present is entirely false.

I find myself in a fortunate position. My work in Europe brings me into contact with many colleagues in a diverse work environment. My colleagues include Swedish lawyers with specialisms in human rights law. I have the benefit of conversations with them. Sweden is currently in the grip to some degree of national shame for the treatment of the people included in the various strands. In 2013 further to the law being changed was a wholesale climate of shame following the realisation that the coercion was not 'soft' as tended to be indicated and believed, it was in fact 'hard'.

It is true that the current legal position in the UK is that the philosophical belief of being gender critical is accepted. It is also accepted that the right to freedom of expression gifts you the right to express your opinions. As an opinion of my own I am free to express that I believe that there is a measure of coercion and control in your own posting. You seem unable to accept that others do not agree with you. You spend an inordinate amount of time policing the forum in order to force your view as the only correct one. All of this is performance is made with a perfunctory interest in truth and the law. This, at least to me, looks unhealthy.
 
You are still defending a coerced eugenics programme. The sterilisation was not voluntary. An application to have ones legal gender requirement could then be made, however sex reassignment surgery was a condition. Why does everything have to be repeated to you endlessly, and then never accepted?

How am I defending eugenics? You've taken it on yourself to say a piece of research with a specific stated purpose was something it wasn't and claimed that a requirement for voluntary surgery in order to change legal sex was the same as thousands of special needs and poor people - almost all women - being sterilised.

In 2016 the IOC said transgender athletes could now compete without surgery. So before 2016 the IOC were supporters of eugenics were they?

You have entirely lost the plot.
 
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monkers

Legendary Member
Time for you to fess up.

This bullshit about male offending rates came from data you just didn't understand. The context was everything. Hang on N wishes to say something,

N here,

I refer you to Swedish law . Read the Sterilisation Act (1975:580) Section 2. I think you will find your position untenable.
 
Is that the bit that says your nemesis Kathleen Stock drafted the eugenics policy in 1935 and JK Rowling did the operations? Did Julie Bindel hand out the GRC's?

You really are utterly ridiculous, appropriating an awful medical scandal that mainly affected girls and women to turn it into being about transwomen.
 

monkers

Legendary Member
Is that the bit that says your nemesis Kathleen Stock drafted the eugenics policy in 1935 and JK Rowling did the operations? Did Julie Bindel hand out the GRC's?

You really are utterly ridiculous, appropriating an awful medical scandal that mainly affected girls and women to turn it into being about transwomen.

You are further embarrassing yourself. It's clear who made appropriation. Better to admit you were a dupe than seen to be complicit.
 
In any discussion about the potential of trans women to rape, it is important that people understand the biological facts. Trans women who have undergone sex reassignment surgery can not rape. Trans women who undergo hormone therapy do so in the knowledge that their penis and their gonads will atrophy, that they will lose libido and the capacity of sexual function.
So earlier you went on about the ''swedish study'' and how forced castration didn't work, yet you keep on getting pennises into this discussion, while i and others already pointed out rapist don't nessacary need to use their penis, i gave you an example of that weird body modification cult earlier.(and rape with objects is also a thing, the law does not require an working penis to classify something as rape.)
So similarly i think it would be wrong to assume that just because of hormone therapy trans women wouldn't be an risk, as the science around rapist seems to move more towards narcistic kind of personalty traits then just the need to get off to put it like that, so what exactly makes you think those individuals would be a smaller risk due to hormone treatment?

Also you keep on personally attacking @AuroraSaab for repeating the same thing but you do exactly the same, go see for yourself about 10 pages back we had a discussion about ''floppy penisses'' which is exactly the same point. So maybe apply that mirror suggestion to yourself aswell?
 
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