Gender again. Sorry!

[monkers]

There is a richness in your content Aurora. Unfortunately Aurora, this is another rather rich example of using gender critical rhetorical framing.

There are at least three examples of narrative controlling devices in play.

1 Where a neutral statement such as ''the evidence that Cass accepted as meeting the double blind placebo controlled trials of other drug trials'' would suffice, it is instead framed an appropriate claim of ''puberty blockers hurt kids and are an evil''.

This distortion although making an appeal to the authority of scientific protocol, instead avoids contact with nuance, scientific reality, real world considerations, or engagement with ethical concerns.

2 A truthful account of the Dutch experience may have given enough room for the forum to consider, it has been lit with vivid exaggeration against a background of sinister motives - much like any other typical conspiracy theory. ''The Dutch brought in aliens from planet Trans as part of a wicked experience''. Yes that is hyperbolic exaggeration mirroring your own.

3 You've summed neutral framing of others and collapsed them in order to produce a narrative pushing the moral panic imperative of a call to arms.

The real truth is that there are many examples where the double blind protocols of drug testing can not be used due to significant concerns. The puberty blocker trial is just one example. Cass has chosen to say that puberty blockers have not been subjected to this regime. However she does not conclude that the evidence of double blind placebo controlled trials must be conducted. She is saying something quite different.


Conclusion
If there is one opening for the greatest concern that would justify an alarm level of panic, it can be found by careful analysis of the trends at which trans children who have prevented from being prescribed are otherwise harming themselves. Thereupon the competing issues of potential long-term bone mineral density reduction and life itself need to be addressed - but not by us, but by those with a multi-disciplinary team of medical scientists, endocrinologists, and psychiatrists working in a neutral environment.

 

[AuroraSaab]

1 Where a neutral statement such as ''the evidence that Cass accepted as meeting the double blind placebo controlled trials of other drug trials'' would suffice, it is instead framed an appropriate claim of ''puberty blockers hurt kids and are an evil''.

Cass has nothing to do with the forthcoming medical trial other than writing her original report. She didn't design it and isn't involved in running it.

The rest of your post is the usual verbose guff.

Conclusion
If there is one opening for the greatest concern that would justify an alarm level of panic, it can be found by careful analysis of the trends at which trans children who have prevented from being prescribed are otherwise harming themselves.

The UK suicide lead, Prof Louis Appleby, says there has been no increase in suicides of children on the waiting list since blockers were banned. The stats given out by the Good Law Project are recklessly wrong and misleading.
Only the most ghoulish adults tell children they'll kill themselves if they don't get this or that drug.

If anything we should look at the evidence we already have about those who went through UK gender clinics in the last 20 years. Let's see how many desisted and what their mental health is first.

 

[monkers]

Cass has nothing to do with the forthcoming medical trial other than writing her original report. She didn't design it and isn't involved in running it.

The rest of your post is the usual verbose guff.



The UK suicide lead, Prof Louis Appleby, says there has been no increase in suicides of children on the waiting list since blockers were banned. The stats given out by the Good Law Project are recklessly wrong and misleading.
Only the most ghoulish adults tell children they'll kill themselves if they don't get this or that drug.

If anything we should look at the evidence we already have about those who went through UK gender clinics in the last 20 years. Let's see how many desisted and what their mental health is first.

Aurora, your first sentence contain three separate inaccuracies.

First, Cass explicitly recommended that future access to puberty blockers should be restricted to a formal research‑trial framework. That recommendation is the origin of the requirement for a trial.

Second, I have not said — nor implied — that Cass has any involvement beyond her report, let alone that she designed the new trial.

Third, dismissing factual points as ‘verbose guff’ is not a substitute for addressing them.

Appleby could only evaluate the data he was given. The question is why the dataset was so limited. Was that a limitation he imposed, or a limitation in what was supplied to him? We know the dataset was incomplete because both publicly available coroner’s reports and FOI disclosures revealed additional cases that were not included.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I'll also add that when Laura Knuessenberg was busy doing the 'both sides tho'' bit and talked about Cass receiving criticism and 'at one point you couldn't travel on a bus' she wasn't talking about gender critic feminists threatening her with violence. Would have been helpful to know just which side it is that was threatening her wouldn't it?

And who did they get on the panel to discuss it? Trans activist Billy Bragg, Emily 'men can have a cervix' Thornberry, and a Tory with nothing much to say..... not much balance there.

Appleby could only evaluate the data he was given. The question is why the dataset was so limited. Was that a limitation he imposed, or a limitation in what was supplied to him? We know the dataset was incomplete because both publicly available coroner’s reports and FOI disclosures revealed additional cases that were not included.

His data was sound. It was actual under 18's on the GIDS waiting list - ie who had a diagnosis and had been referred for treatment. It wasn't the GLP's data which consisted of kids without a diagnosis, ie not even in the system and thus not yet eligible for puberty blockers, and kids who the GLP had decided were 'trans'. And even then the stats didn't bear out the claim that 'no blockers = suicide'.

How can you claim they committed suicide because they didn't get puberty blockers when they weren't even diagnosed, being seen by a GIDS clinic, or on the waiting list? Recklessly ghoulish.

 

[monkers]

I'll also add that when Laura Knuessenberg was busy doing the 'both sides tho'' bit and talked about Cass receiving criticism and 'at one point you couldn't travel on a bus' she wasn't talking about gender critic feminists threatening her with violence. Would have been helpful to know just which side it is that was threatening her wouldn't it?

And who did they get on the panel to discuss it? Trans activist Billy Bragg, Emily 'men can have a cervix' Thornberry, and a Tory with nothing much to say..... not much balance there.

Some may find your detour of alternative framing interesting, but we haven't finished our discussion of the facts. Perhaps we can get back to that?

His data was sound. It was actual under 18's on the GIDS waiting list - ie who had a diagnosis and had been referred for treatment. It wasn't the GLP's data which consisted of kids without a diagnosis, ie not even in the system and thus not yet eligible for puberty blockers, and kids who the GLP had decided were 'trans'. And even then the stats didn't bear out the claim that 'no blockers = suicide'.

How can you claim they committed suicide because they didn't get puberty blockers when they weren't even diagnosed, being seen by a GIDS clinic, or on the waiting list? Recklessly ghoulish.

Aurora, this still doesn’t answer the question I asked. There were young people waiting for care, all hoping to be seen and treated. When Cass, Atkins and Streeting shut down the pathway, that hope disappeared, and the impact on community wellbeing has been described repeatedly by parents who lost their children. Those experiences don’t vanish simply because the young people hadn’t yet reached a formal diagnosis or a place on the GIDS list.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Aurora, this still doesn’t answer the question I asked. There were young people waiting for care, all hoping to be seen and treated. When Cass, Atkins and Streeting shut down the pathway, that hope disappeared, and the impact on community wellbeing has been described repeatedly by parents who lost their children. Those experiences don’t vanish simply because the young people hadn’t yet reached a formal diagnosis or a place on the GIDS list.

This simply isn't true.
The pathway of treatment wasn't shut down at all. Children can still be referred to GIDS clinics or mental health services. They'll still receive support and treatment - it just won't include puberty blockers.

If a child hasn't even received a diagnosis how can you even say puberty blockers would have saved their lives? Who has diagnosed them as 'genuinely transgender'? A parent? Jolyon Maugham? You?

This is unevidenced ghoulish nonsense, preying on distressed children and stoking fear of suicide for which there is no evidence.

 

[CXRAndy]

There were young people waiting for care, all hoping to be seen and treated

Treatment doesn't necessarily require sterilisation drugs or chopping healthy body parts off.

Psychiatric treatment must be fully exhausted before any other forms of treatment considered- even if that takes many years.

Most seem to grow through their dysphoria

 

[monkers]

This simply isn't true.
The pathway of treatment wasn't shut down at all. Children can still be referred to GIDS clinics or mental health services. They'll still receive support and treatment - it just won't include puberty blockers.

If a child hasn't even received a diagnosis how can you even say puberty blockers would have saved their lives? Who has diagnosed them as 'genuinely transgender'? A parent? Jolyon Maugham? You?

This is unevidenced ghoulish nonsense, preying on distressed children and stoking fear of suicide for which there is no evidence.

This is the very thing that parents are saying - one only has to listen. For a juvenile trans person, this is where hope goes to live or die.

That and the fact that the Tavistock closed and the waiting list became about a quarter of a century!

 

[AuroraSaab]

'It just won't include puberty blockers'

This is the very thing that parents are saying - one only has to listen. For a juvenile trans person, this is where hope lies or is denied.

Again, this simply isn't true. If you endlessly repeat to these children that they must, must, must get puberty blockers or they'll kill themselves then you are creating an untrue narrative because there are lots of adults who claim a transgender identity who didn't get them and haven't killed themselves.
The lives of these children aren't hopeless if they don't get puberty blockers because most of them will resolve their distress without medication, often growing up to be gay adults.

Cass actually said that in the interview: most of the boys referred grow up to be gay. Keep them off a medicalised pathway and they grow up to be happy gay men.

Stop telling non conforming and gay kids their lives are hopeless without puberty blockers.
It's abhorrent.

That and the fact that the Tavistock closed and the waiting list became about a quarter of a century!

That's a different issue but you know very well that the Tavistock was closed as other clinics were set up. The waiting list for mental health support is very long for all ages and all conditions. Just because they aren't being seen by a gender clinic yet it doesn't mean those on the waiting list aren't being seen by local mental health services.

Stop promoting suicidal ideation in vulnerable children.

 

[monkers]

'It just won't include puberty blockers'

Again, this simply isn't true. If you endlessly repeat to these children that they must, must, must get puberty blockers or they'll kill themselves then you are creating an untrue narrative because there are lots of adults who claim a transgender identity who didn't get them and haven't killed themselves.
The lives of these children aren't hopeless if they don't get puberty blockers because most of them will resolve their distress without medication, often growing up to be gay adults.

Cass actually said that in the interview: most of the boys referred grow up to be gay. Keep them off a medicalised pathway and they grow up to be happy gay men.

Stop telling non conforming and gay kids their lives are hopeless without puberty blockers.
It's abhorrent.




View attachment 13180

Why on every thread it seems to I have to repeat these same words ...

Learn chronology.
Learn chronology.
Learn chronology.
Learn chronology.
Learn chronology.

At the time that Appleby wrote this he could not have had the benefit of the FOI findings.

It is perfectly legitimate question. Did Appleby know that he was given a much reduced data set to evaluate?

Did he know Auroa? Did he?

Is he a part of this cover up, or did he not know? Can you provide a certain answer? If you can, what is the certain answer?

If he did not know, you can make the case that those words have some merit. If he didn't know -forgive him. If he did know - then jail him.

 

[monkers]

Trans youth suicide - the truth we've always known. What it means to me. What I'm doing about it.​

• 
  carolinelitman
• Feb 7
• 9 min read

Updated: 7 days ago

Last week Queer AF broke a story that revealed the suicide rate in trans under eighteens is around fourteen times higher than you might expect from census data.



As the parent of Alice a trans woman who died by suicide in 2022 at the age of twenty, this story is of immense importance to me. One thing missing from the story, because it isn't a watertight fact, is that this figure is definitely an underestimate. Why?



Alice died when she was twenty but she took a very serious overdose that could have been fatal when she was only seventeen. If she had died then her death wouldn't have been recorded as a trans death. There would have been a different name on her headstone. How many more deaths are there each year of trans youth who have not come out to their family because of hostility within the family, or externally, from TV, radio, print and social media, because of exclusion and othering at school, in sports and within clubs? I have heard several stories from trans people about their trans friend who died by suicide but who was buried with a different name and in a different gender to the one they knew them to inhabit.



Today the Good Law Project (GLP) has expanded on QueerAF's reporting. You can give both a follow on Bluesky or Instagram and subscribe to free newsletter's to get more detail about both their discoveries. But here's some basics:



Jolyon Maugham, GLP founder, first went onto social media, Twitter/ X, in June 2024 stating that suicide rates had increased in trans youth as a direct result of NHS England stopping gender affirming care for under eighteens. This cessation of care came after the notorious Keira Bell case against the Tavistock. (A case that was later overturned in the high court). That's right, Keira Bell lost, but you'd never think so from the way her story is framed by gender critical journalists.



The UK Health Secretary, Wes Streeting, took the highly unusual step of responding to these claims by asking Professor Louis Appleby, a known gender critical psychiatrist, to produce a report to examine Jolyon's claims. He turned around this report in under a month. This alone should make people with any curiosity sit up and take notice. The report was clearly cobbled together with one intention, to dismiss the claims as quickly as possible. And that's what it did. You can read the full report here, but the main takeaway was that trans people and their allies were making things up and weren't to be trusted. Lots of commentary ensued that criticised us for daring to speak out about trans suicide at all - first we were lying and second we were risking increasing suicide rates in trans people by drawing attention to our concerns.

 

[spen666]

https://tinyurl.com/2dqmlfyy


Some won't be happy

 

[CXRAndy]

Allowing children to get into their mid 20s before considering any drug or surgery will allow almost all to come through their dysphoria

 

[AuroraSaab]

It is perfectly legitimate question. Did Appleby know that he was given a much reduced data set to evaluate? Did he know Auroa? Did he?
Is he a part of this cover up, or did he not know?

His data set is the waiting list. It's objective data of those who were referred to Gids for gender dysphoria.

The GLP data includes children without a diagnosis - some children whose only evidence of being 'trans' is the GLP's say so.

To suggest that a Professor of Psychiatry, the UK's leading expert on suicide, is deliberately covering up the stats is absolutely ridiculous.
The claims of you and the Good Law Project are so far out it's about all you've got left.

If he did not know, you can make the case that those words have some merit. If he didn't know -forgive him. If he did know - then jail him.

Just listen to yourself. Who to believe? The UK's leading suicide expert or the vested interests of you and the tax lawyer?

You are being disingenuous. Care hasn't stopped for these children and young people, it just won't include puberty blockers.

You have repeatedly, specifically, linked suicide to not being given puberty blockers. There is no evidence for this.
As with all people with mental health issues, long waiting lists can contribute to increased risk. That's true of all ages and all mental health conditions.