Gender again. Sorry!

[winjim]

It's controversial (to some people) because it shows you acknowledge that a man who identifies as a woman isn't actually a woman at all - because their 'woman-ness' depends on the situation. That's considered transphobic by many trans activists.


I've never heard a feminist say dads shouldn't take their daughters out. Most women would be ok with a father taking a girl into the women's toilets if needed, though there's often a baby changing toilet these days. The toilet situation is easily solved by a 3rd unisex space of fully enclosed cubicles each with a sink. And additional separate toilets just for women. Unacceptable to the trans community though.

You keep speaking for 'most women'. I'm not sure that's wise.

The twitter thread I'm referring to has fathers waiting outside the ladies' or simply not taking daughters out at all, I can't see any mention of fathers going into the ladies' toilet. Are you sure that women would be happy with that? It would make me uncomfortable, I would definitely feel I was intruding. My preference would be to use an accessible / family room if there is one but if not I would take her into the gents'.

University of Manchester has some good non-gendered toilets. Big wide entrance onto the corridor so it's visible, no nooks and crannies, busy part of campus. Cubicles with full floor to ceiling doors, shared sinks in the middle but TBH I think a sink in each cubicle might be a bit impractical, would take up a lot of space. It seemed well designed to me.

 

[newfhouse]

Expressing a genital preference in a sexual partner is controversial (to some people), nwfhouse, because it shows you acknowledge that a man who identifies as a woman isn't actually a woman at all - because their 'woman-ness' depends on the situation.

If you regard them as a woman at work but exclude them as a sexual partner because they have a penis, that's considered transphobic by many trans activists, who will genuinely say 'Women can have penises' and 'Men can have vaginas'.

Funnily enough, the gay community seem to take umbrage a bit at this because it undermines the reality of same sex attraction that they fought so long to be allowed to express.

I find both extremes perplexing but fortunately there is no requirement for me to agree wholly with one gang or the other. As such I’m pretty much in accord with most people I know, including the most significant women in my life.

 

[icowden]

I took my daughter camping (well campervanning) from 18mths along with her Brother who was 3 yrs older.

So your camper van had no toilet, and your wife was not present?

That said, I used to take both of my girls into the ladies when they needed a nappy change as that was often where the baby change was located. I was only challenged once, and just asked the lady where she thought I should change a nappy!

 

[Deleted member 28]

but it does seem a weird sort of feminism that doesn't trust children's own fathers to take them to the toilet safely. It basically prohibits dads from taking their daughters out of the house on their own.

I wouldn't take my daughter into a Women's toilet when she was small I would always take her into the Gent's cubicle, when she was old enough to 'sort herself out' I would simply wait outside the Ladies for her.

 

[Deleted member 28]

So your camper van had no toilet, and your wife was not present?

That said, I used to take both of my girls into the ladies when they needed a nappy change as that was often where the baby change was located. I was only challenged once, and just asked the lady where she thought I should change a nappy!

My Wife was never present at van shows as it 'wasn't her thing' so no, the van we have has a small 'porta potti' with a 'number 1 only' rule so again we used the toilets.

 

[winjim]

I wouldn't take my daughter into a Women's toilet when she was small I would always take her into the Gent's cubicle, when she was old enough to 'sort herself out' I would simply wait outside the Ladies for her.

Yeah, me too, that's absolutely the normal way to go about things. It's only a handful of deranged wingnuts who think we should be doing anything else.

 

[AuroraSaab]

You keep speaking for 'most women'. I'm not sure that's wise.

Yet you take one Twitter thread with a few extreme comments and extrapolate it to being 'a funny kind of feminism' as though it's a common view amongst feminists. I think most women want to retain single sex spaces and the option of single sex services.

Do you think a paralysed girl or woman who needs intimate washing should have the right to insist that her carer is female if she wishes, as opposed to someone who is male or simply identifies as the female gender? These are the single sex services women wish to preserve the right to choose about. Ask the women you know.

Third unisex spaces solve most of the toilet/changing room problems. Keeping and properly enforcing the single sex exemptions of the Equality Act solves most of the other practicalities. Neither are acceptable to trans activists.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I wouldn't take my daughter into a Women's toilet when she was small I would always take her into the Gent's cubicle, when she was old enough to 'sort herself out' I would simply wait outside the Ladies for her.

When she was old enough to sort herself out, say 6 or 7, would you let her go to the Gents on her own if the Ladies was busy? Probably not because, well.... blokes are in there. You know an alone female or male child of any age is likely 100% safe amongst women in any situation and less safe amongst men, any men.

If you're in a darkened cinema and someone has to sit next to an adult male, it will be you guys or your wife. You don't let your 8 year old son or daughter sit there. Same on planes. You might do the same for women but I bet it's much less of a worry. Where possible, your kids don't sit next to adult males, you do.


This is what I don't get with some of you fellas. You do this kind of safeguarding with your own children every single day but you can't extrapolate the reasoning to the wider class of women and girls. Or maybe you think someone saying they identify as a woman gives them a free pass. Either way it's massive cognitive dissonance.

 

[winjim]

Yet you take one Twitter thread with a few extreme comments and extrapolate it to being 'a funny kind of feminism' as though it's a common view amongst feminists.

I mentioned it in response to a not entirely serious post about toilets, only as a funny story written by a deranged lunatic. Who probably does consider themselves a feminist. I called it a 'type' of feminism, not implying at all that it was consensus or mainstream opinion. You lump elements of various communities together and assume peoples thoughts and intentions all the time. I try not to and I haven't on this occasion, I don't know if you missed the point of my post earlier about cis women experiencing shared consciousness.

You also shift subjects on and argue against positions people haven't mentioned that they hold. I'm talking about toilets, not intimate care for paralysed people. The two things may be linked but I'm chatting nonsense about a ridiculous opinion someone has about the former, and not expressing a view on the latter.

Incidentally, before you mention it again I don't use the label 'feminist' or 'feminist ally' to describe myself. I'm just some dickhead talking bollocks on the internet.

 

[Deleted member 28]

When she was old enough to sort herself out, say 6 or 7, would you let her go to the Gents on her own if the Ladies was busy? Probably not because, well.... blokes are in there. You know an alone female or male child of any age is likely 100% safe amongst women in any situation and less safe amongst men, any men.

If you're in a darkened cinema and someone has to sit next to an adult male, it will be you guys or your wife. You don't let your 8 year old son or daughter sit there. Same on planes. You might do the same for women but I bet it's much less of a worry. Where possible, your kids don't sit next to adult males, you do.


This is what I don't get with some of you fellas. You do this kind of safeguarding with your own children every single day but you can't extrapolate the reasoning to the wider class of women and girls. Or maybe you think someone saying they identify as a woman gives them a free pass. Either way it's massive cognitive dissonance.

You're absolutely correct apart from the last bit, as far as I'm concerned anyway.

I'm fully behind the concept that being born male (not this CIS bollox) means exactly that, you're a fookin bloke whether you like it or not.

If you choose to dress up as a Woman, take drugs to grow t*ts, have bits chopped off or sewn on fill yer boots but give the real Lasses their own spaces and stay out of their sport.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I mentioned it in response to a not entirely serious post about toilets, only as a funny story written by a deranged lunatic. Who probably does consider themselves a feminist. I called it a 'type' of feminism, not implying at all that it was consensus or mainstream opinion. You lump elements of various communities together and assume peoples thoughts and intentions all the time. I try not to and I haven't on this occasion, I don't know if you missed the point of my post earlier about cis women experiencing shared consciousness.

You also shift subjects on and argue against positions people haven't mentioned that they hold. I'm talking about toilets, not intimate care for paralysed people. The two things may be linked but I'm chatting nonsense about a ridiculous opinion someone has about the former, and not expressing a view on the latter.

Incidentally, before you mention it again I don't use the label 'feminist' or 'feminist ally' to describe myself. I'm just some dickhead talking bollocks on the internet.

I mention other things because you seem unable to look at the wider picture and consider the unintended consequences of saying 'A man can be a woman'. And you can happily chat bollocks because you're a bloke and these issues are mainly theoretical to you. But there will come a time when they aren't and you might think differently.

 

[icowden]

When she was old enough to sort herself out, say 6 or 7, would you let her go to the Gents on her own if the Ladies was busy? Probably not because, well.... blokes are in there. You know an alone female or male child of any age is likely 100% safe amongst women in any situation and less safe amongst men, any men.

Excellent example and absolutely true. You would also have few qualms about asking a lady entering the ladies if they could just check that your daughter was OK in there.

 

[newfhouse]

You would also have few qualms about asking a lady entering the ladies if they could just check that your daughter was OK in there.

Would you only ask traditionally feminine looking women for such help?

 

[Deleted member 28]

Would you only ask traditionally feminine looking women for such help?

They should be the only ones in there though, that's the issue.

 

[winjim]

They should be the only ones in there though, that's the issue.

Are you enforcing a no dungarees rule?