Gender poll - new and improved

[AuroraSaab]

It's also akin to homeopathy. Some people swear by it. Recruiting 300 of those people to run a trial about whether they find the thing that they are convinced/have been told will cure their mental distress actually makes them feel better is going to be very prone to confirmation bias. We should be looking at the results from the last 20 years of UK gender clinics first before starting this unethical trial.

 

[icowden]

Now that's established, I'll move along to other questions for anyone inclined to try answering them, such as:
Why is this such a contentious topic?

My two pennorth is that it seems to be related to militant extremists on both sides.

On the "pro-trans" (for want of a better word) side there is a tendency to shut down discussion, to refuse to engage. TERFs should be attacked or doxed, events should be cancelled. Just to discuss whether the trans argument is right is to cause trans people to die in the same way that fairies die if someone says that they don't believe in them.

On the TERF side or "anti-trans" side there tend to be extremists whose position is that trans doesn't exist. It's just a mental health problem and we shouldn't be pandering. Trans people are all male perverts out to rape women and steal their achievements. No quarter should be given and no compromise made.

Neither of these positions is sane, sensible or sustainable.

I believe that there is a middle ground, but at the moment the discussion is about who shouts loudest, and if you are in a position where you are exposed to the public, expressing the wrong view can be devastating to your career. Famously JK Rowling has made it clear that she is in a position where it makes no difference to her if people boycott her work. She is wealthy beyond her wildest dreams and doing what she loves.

On the flip side, Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson and Rupert Grint have all stated pro-trans views. All of them, at the time were recently out of the Harry Potter franchise and could not afford to lose work. To put your head above the parapet is very risky. If you put it way above you risk becoming an extremist.

I think Graham Linehan started from a position of genuinely wanting to stand up for women's rights. He has suffered, but he has also caused suffering, and far too often espouses extremist views rather than working with rational argument .

Ideally it needs to be a topic that can be discussed openly and freely. For that to happen, we probably need a change of direction from Stonewall and other organisations.

There is room to be supportive of trans people, to accommodate them and make their lives better and as normal and open as possible, but I'm not sure that the panacea that some people want, of being genuinely able to change your gender freely and without question or limitation, is currently possible.

 

[mickle]

" On the TERF side... Trans people are all male .... out to rape women ...... "

No, just a significant percentage.

I have about 1500 irl and online TERF friends. Ive never heard anyone suggest this. Part of the problem with this whole conflict is that gender critical women's voices are misrepresented. Its a deliberate tactic to paint them as extremist.

What we are saying is that 'transwomen's' *rates* of violent and sexual crimes are no less than that of the general population of men. 95+% of all such crimes are committed by men and women make up 88% of their victims. We exclude men from womens spaces. And it stands to reason that 'transwomen' should also be excluded.

 

[icowden]

.I have about 1500 irl and online TERF friends. Ive never heard anyone suggest this. Part of the problem with this whole conflict is that gender critical women's voices are misrepresented. Its a deliberate tactic to paint them as extremist.L

Yes, that was the point of my post.

 

[Ianonabike]

My two pennorth is that it seems to be related to militant extremists on both sides.

On the "pro-trans" (for want of a better word) side there is a tendency to shut down discussion, to refuse to engage. TERFs should be attacked or doxed, events should be cancelled. Just to discuss whether the trans argument is right is to cause trans people to die in the same way that fairies die if someone says that they don't believe in them.

On the TERF side or "anti-trans" side there tend to be extremists whose position is that trans doesn't exist. It's just a mental health problem and we shouldn't be pandering. Trans people are all male perverts out to rape women and steal their achievements. No quarter should be given and no compromise made.

Neither of these positions is sane, sensible or sustainable.

I believe that there is a middle ground, but at the moment the discussion is about who shouts loudest, and if you are in a position where you are exposed to the public, expressing the wrong view can be devastating to your career. Famously JK Rowling has made it clear that she is in a position where it makes no difference to her if people boycott her work. She is wealthy beyond her wildest dreams and doing what she loves.

On the flip side, Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson and Rupert Grint have all stated pro-trans views. All of them, at the time were recently out of the Harry Potter franchise and could not afford to lose work. To put your head above the parapet is very risky. If you put it way above you risk becoming an extremist.

I think Graham Linehan started from a position of genuinely wanting to stand up for women's rights. He has suffered, but he has also caused suffering, and far too often espouses extremist views rather than working with rational argument .

Ideally it needs to be a topic that can be discussed openly and freely. For that to happen, we probably need a change of direction from Stonewall and other organisations.

There is room to be supportive of trans people, to accommodate them and make their lives better and as normal and open as possible, but I'm not sure that the panacea that some people want, of being genuinely able to change your gender freely and without question or limitation, is currently possible.

There's an asymmetry. A 'TERF' who doesn't think trans exists other than as a mental health issue is expressing an opinion which a great many sane people share, and I have yet to see a death or rape threat coming from that direction. There is absolutely no comparison of militancy between the two "extremists".

As you've mentioned JKR, a little reminder:
I've been sent thousands of threats of murder, rape and violence. A trans woman posted my family's home address with a bomb-making guide...

By standing up to a movement that relies on threats of violence, ostracisation and guilt-by-association, all of us have been smeared and defamed, but many have lost their livelihoods. Some have been physically assaulted by trans activists. Female politicians have been forced to hire personal security on the advice of police. The news that one of the UK's leading endocrinologists, Dr Hillary Cass, was advised not to travel by public transport for her own safety should shame everyone who let this insanity run amok.

Lest we forget, gender apostates have been targeted for crimes such as doubting the evidential basis for transitioning children, for arguing for fair sport for women and girls, for wanting to retain single sex spaces and services, especially for the most vulnerable, and for thinking it barbaric to lock in female prisoners with convicted male sex offenders.

But I asked, and you answered, so thanks for that. The followup question of course would be, in what way can trans identifying men be accommodated without disaccommodating women? What does compromise actually look like? You're after middle ground. I'd suggest that the compromise between, say, flat earthers and the rest of us, isn't that the earth is half flat. Sometimes it simply isn't possible.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

T

On the TERF side or "anti-trans" side there tend to be extremists whose position is that trans doesn't exist.

Terf = anti trans
Total bollocks.
By TERF I assume you mean gender critical. Which is not anti trans, just 'this space is taken'. Trans women you can be, but you can't be women. There are probably people who'll have drank less wine than me and are more articulate anyhow - merry Christmas all.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

View: https://youtu.be/1J1CfXFlI4c?si=5umIrPvYX7m7DYB3

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

T
Terf = anti trans
Total bollocks.
By TERF I assume you mean gender critical. Which is not anti trans, just 'this space is taken'. Trans women you can be, but you can't be women. There are probably people who'll have drank less wine than me and are more articulate anyhow - merry Christmas all.

No Terf and gender critical is not the same, that is activist language. Someone who is gender critical but leaves transgender poeple alone and or respects them is not the same as what is called a terf someone who is critical about gender positions an actively opposes/jarrareses trans gender persons, much in the same way as trans activist harrass anything they call ''TERF''
I believe both are not in the best interest of trans gender people.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

No Terf and gender critical is not the same, that is activist language. Someone who is gender critical but leaves transgender poeple alone and or respects them is not the same as what is called a terf someone who is critical about gender positions an actively opposes/jarrareses trans gender persons, much in the same way as trans activist harrass anything they call ''TERF''
I believe both are not in the best interest of trans gender people.

Utter nonsense. You've just made that up.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Utter nonsense. You've just made that up.

Sure and whatever, if you go on wikipedia and suchlike and you search the term ''TERF'' it says it's made up by ''dutchguylivingintheuk'' on the ncap part of the cyclechat forum..
I don't know what stuff you have been taking but it's strong, bro!

 

[mickle]

A liberal feminist seeks equality. A radical feminist doesn't believe that equality is desirable or even possible within a patriarchal system which exists and is maintained for the benefit of men.

Radical feminists (like Sheila Jeffries, Janice Williams, Linda Bellos) were the first to make noise about the threat that transgenderism posed to women's rights, safety and dignity.

So they became know as TERFs. The word TERF became, simultaneously, a term of abuse and something's to be proud of. Depending on what side of the conversation you stand.

Men can't be 'feminists', and so the word TERF can't include them. TERF Ally is a bit of a mouthful. And many women, for different reasons, reject the term.

"Gender Critical" is the most common alternative. But many people reject this descriptor because they reject the concept of gender altogether. "Sex Realist" is in common use, but not by the transgenderists...

 

[icowden]

TERF I assume you mean gender critical.

Nope. I think you may have missed my point which was to illustrate the extremism on both sides.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

Nope. I think you may have missed my point which was to illustrate the extremism on both sides.

Looks like I did and still am.

 

[mickle]

Nope. I think you may have missed my point which was to illustrate the extremism on both sides.

The sex realist position is not "extreme".

 

[Ianonabike]

Again, what does compromise actually look like? Anybody?