Israel / Palestine

[cookiemonster]

Have to agree with @multitool on this one. You also seemingly miss the point that this was literally a group of politicians using a very serious problem to score points with. No one actually gives a toss what the outcome of the motion was. The SNP used it for political gameplaying, not because they are bothered one way or another about either Israel or Palestine or what is happening there.

They need to grow up and stop fannying about with "is it a ceasefire or a pause, or a "don't shoot anyone Friday" ". Hamas shouldn't have murdered a huge group of Israelis and Israel should not be massacring Palestinians in response. It's going to continue though until Netanyahu has killed or displaced every Palestinian in the pretence of protecting Israel.

Totally wrong.

Why did Starmer threaten the Speaker with his job? Why are the Privileges Committee now looking at this? Liebour have had 8 Opposition Day motions since Oct 7th and not one has been used to call for a ceasefire. Why do Labour have an issue with the term 'Collective Punishment?'

As I said earlier, this was nothing to do with gaza but everything to do with Starmer saving his arse and heading off a potentially damaging rebellion by his MPs.

Chris Bryant on C4 news admitted that he was ordered to filibuster the SNP Motion. Hoyle then broke convention and ignored advice by the HOC Clerks.

I still fail to see what the SNP did wrong. No-one has came up with any evidence so far that the SNP caused this mess.

 

[winjim]

Here's the BBC report for more detail. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68398479

...It is not the first time someone has self-immolated in front of an Israeli diplomatic mission in the US.
In December, a protester set themselves on fire in front of the Israeli consulate in the US state of Georgia.
Police said the demonstrator used petrol, and a Palestinian flag was found at the scene on that occasion.

Skip past the headline, the subheadline and all the way to paragraph five for the actual story.

 

[theclaud]

"Ready to drag parliament into the mire so it could pursue its manic drive to keep control of a party narrative that now exists only in the leadership’s heads"

Good piece by Nesrine Malik on the way Gaza is exposing the rot at the heart of Starmer's Labour.

 

[theclaud]

and Starmer having to (or about to) sit amongst Western leaders, including the US) and behave in a way that is cohesive and not divisive

And how's that going?

 

[multitool]

Earlier I said I didn't find Hoyle's excuse (that it was about safety) to be believable because allowing the vote on a more restricted, but succesful, basis would certainly give the most vociferous protestors what they wanted.

What is believable is that he wanted "the broadest possible" debate by removing the contentious phrase about collective punishment, because it allows people to call for an end to fighting without apportioning blame to either side.

It doesn't matter whether we think blame can be apportioned, it matters what the MPs want to do and whether the motion constricts them.

 

[multitool]

And how's that going?

If you look really carefully you'll see the key players are pretty much acting in unison.

 

[multitool]

I think you are being unfair to the SNP with that. The First Minister’s in-laws were trapped in Gaza at the start of the war and his wife still has family members suffering there. Aside from the familial connection, the party has been consistent in its support for an end to the violence.

Yes, because it knows its an issue it can use to drive a wedge into its main electoral opponent.

Literally nobody involved in politics thinks the SNP are acting on principle.

 

[cookiemonster]

Yes, because it knows its an issue it can use to drive a wedge into its main electoral opponent.

Literally nobody involved in politics thinks the SNP are acting on principle.

Evidence of that rather astonishing statement? The SNP have been the only adults in the room lately and are right to be fuming over Labour's actions last week which dragged UK politics even lower.

Do Liebour have any principles? They change them more often than a windsock changes direction.

 

[theclaud]

If you look really carefully you'll see the key players are pretty much acting in unison.

I might be missing some subtler meaning here, but is this just saying that Western/European leaders are mostly all doing the same thing over Gaza? We all know this - my question was about how that's going down outside the ruling-class bubble.

 

[theclaud]

Yes, because it knows its an issue it can use to drive a wedge into its main electoral opponent.

Literally nobody involved in politics thinks the SNP are acting on principle.

What's the problem with the SNP's actions having a tactical element or being related to electoral politics? You don't seem to have a problem with Starmer manoeuvring in whatever way he sees fit to inflict damage on enemies, real or imagined. It's only in the current Labour Party that electoral success is understood as an end in itself, with no meaning or connection to the material conditions of our lives.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Yes, because it knows its an issue it can use to drive a wedge into its main electoral opponent.

Literally nobody involved in politics thinks the SNP are acting on principle.

The primary motivation is the cessation of violence.

If there’s such a division within Labour that the SNP’s motion would ‘drive a wedge into its opponent’ then that’s not only secondary but indicates that Labour doesn’t have within its ranks the support it wants on the issue.

It’s time you stopped blaming the SNP for Labour’s internal problems.

 

[icowden]

Evidence of that rather astonishing statement? The SNP have been the only adults in the room lately and are right to be fuming over Labour's actions last week which dragged UK politics even lower.

There's a good explainer here at about 14 minutes 50.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-last-leg/on-demand/76356-002

They introduced the motion to engineer a split in the Labour party who are making up ground in Scotland. For no other reason.

 

[theclaud]

Your occasional reminder that Charlotte Church is a fucking legend.


View: https://twitter.com/s__cook/status/1761861433829007712?t=VV89PnVHMvpz1QhinO4cew&s=19

 

[icowden]

I think you are being unfair to the SNP with that. The First Minister’s in-laws were trapped in Gaza at the start of the war and his wife still has family members suffering there. Aside from the familial connection, the party has been consistent in its support for an end to the violence.

Sorry - I may have been unclear. I meant that the motion was introduced as a political point scoring exercise, not that individual MPs don't care about the situation in Israel / Palestine.

 

[theclaud]

There's a good explainer here at about 14 minutes 50.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-last-leg/on-demand/76356-002

They introduced the motion to engineer a split in the Labour party who are making up ground in Scotland. For no other reason.

Gotta laugh at the idea that a split within the Labour Party needs to be 'engineered by the SNP'. Have you been living under a rock for the last eight years?