Israel / Palestine

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multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
cookiemonster said:
What is the date of the statement? It certainly wasn’t last year when this all kicked off.
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December. And it wouldn't have been first thing, because it wouldn't have been relevant. Very few serious commentators would make the case that Israel should not have responded, it is the nature of the response that is relevant. Starmer pointed out early doors that Israel must abide by international law. He couldn't and wouldn't make the case that they shouldn't respond, nor could he accuse them of things they hadn't yet done. He doesn't have the luxury of consequence-free speech that we enjoy.

I think we are at the point now where momentum will make a unified push against Israeli behaviour much more likely in so far as those in positions of influence will feel that they have an unassailable case provided that they can find a specific attack point, like UK arms sales to Israel. If they can link those to war crimes then it's game on.

I think the killings of the aid workers will be the catalyst, coupled with the looming assault on Rafah.
 
cookiemonster

cookiemonster

Veteran
Location
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multitool said:
December. And it wouldn't have been first thing, because it wouldn't have been relevant. Very few serious commentators would make the case that Israel should not have responded, it is the nature of the response that is relevant. Starmer pointed out early doors that Israel must abide by international law. He couldn't and wouldn't make the case that they shouldn't respond, nor could he accuse them of things they hadn't yet done. He doesn't have the luxury of consequence-free speech that we enjoy.

I think we are at the point now where momentum will make a unified push against Israeli behaviour much more likely in so far as those in positions of influence will feel that they have an unassailable case provided that they can find a specific attack point, like UK arms sales to Israel. If they can link those to war crimes then it's game on.

I think the killings of the aid workers will be the catalyst, coupled with the looming assault on Rafah.
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Two points. One, by December, we all knew what was going on so saying that he didn’t want to accuse Israel of things they hadn’t done yet is just wrong. Israel were breaching the Geneva Convention for a few months by that point. We all saw it.

And two, I agree with the rest of your post. The aid workers murders will be the start of the end of this war. It will, I believe, lead to a 2 state solution, as mandated by the UN, and NuttyYahoo will be in jail. Sadly, it took the deaths of 7 westerners for this to happen. Thirty thousand plus dead Palestinians wasn’t enough.
 
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winjim

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
multitool said:
I think we are at the point now where momentum will make a unified push against Israeli behaviour much more likely in so far as those in positions of influence will feel that they have an unassailable case provided that they can find a specific attack point, like UK arms sales to Israel. If they can link those to war crimes then it's game on.
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This is the claim. British citizens killed by British weapons.


View: https://twitter.com/Beltrew/status/1775549140295967074?t=Xfb0rgWXyaGdeeYB8ck1nA&s=19
 
multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
Good. It won't be current politicians who pick up on this. It needs retired well-known people with credibility and esteem, unconstrained by their previous position (and I realise some of you don't agree with/understand this) to speak up. If this happens then a political response of some sort will be unavoidable.
 
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multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1775875808344588749?s=20

The cracks are appearing.

Ultimately it is unlikely to affect much at all, other than domestically. It would need the US to act on arms supplies.

I think there's an Israeli trap here because, unfortunately for the Palestinians, there is a bigger, more important context involving Israel's overall security and using Israel as a bulwark against Iranian regional ambitions. Israel knows this. It also knows that Iran is inching its way forward to developing a nuclear bomb. Quite possibly the Israeli attack on the Iranian consulate in Syria is a message that Israel could widen the war, and if it does it will have potential repercussions in other hotspots, notably Ukraine and Taiwan.
 
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multitool

multitool

Pharaoh
I think I said earlier that the big noise will come from the retired or resigned. They do not face the constraints of office.

He's brave, but there will be many like him who hold the same views.
 
Milzy

Milzy

Well-Known Member
Hamas are winning the war. They can’t physical beat the IDF on the battlefield but they’re winning the PR war.
End game is to get the rest of the world to hate Israel, then get the USA to cut ties with them leaving them more vilnerable.
Hamas hiding in schools, mosques & hospitals does make them legit targets. Apparently they get intelligence on how many civilians are inside in ratio to enemy fighters. If it’s within their collateral damage zone they will bomb them. As there’s miles of tunnels under Gaza this will go on for some time.
The U.K. are helping arm the Jewish state, shame on them. Tories have got to be out now.
 
cookiemonster

cookiemonster

Veteran
Location
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😥

IMG_1460.jpeg
 
RecordAceFromNew

RecordAceFromNew

Member
cookiemonster said:
The aid workers murders will be the start of the end of this war. It will, I believe, lead to a 2 state solution, as mandated by the UN, and NuttyYahoo will be in jail. Sadly, it took the deaths of 7 westerners for this to happen. Thirty thousand plus dead Palestinians wasn’t enough.
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Won't happen for a very very long time, if ever, imho.

Israel won't "lose", for the same reason why Ukraine can't win - they have adversaries with overwhelmingly asymmetric military power (and 'team' resolve).

Anybody who thinks the US/UK government are having a change of heart because of Israeli crimes are deluded - if that was the case they would have done so during the past 7 decades, now for just a few white aid workers, seriously? The current spectacle is just more smoke and mirror for domestic PR purpose, and as usual you can rely on Trump to say it the way it is. But since they do control all the major political parties AND Western media, any real policy change is unfortunately fantasy.

The irony/karma is that "Israel won't lose" is actually seriously bad news not only for US/UK, but also for the Jews. Trouble for Israel is they have no better alternative than muddling through with status quo no matter how horrendous, because both single state and two state are no solution. The former because with Palestinians being the majority apartheid is a given, the latter because it will mean a full blown civil war with armed settlers in merely Act One.

Oct 7th and what happened since changed nothing of the cold, cruel logic above, except hardening antagony all round. What c35,000 Palestinian lives did buy them, is showing the world the full splendour of a US (and by close subject association UK, Germany etc.) with no clothes, and that their hope is no longer liable to be snuffed out instantly by Saudi/Arab betrayal. I think that is a silver lining, YMMV.
 
C R

C R

Über Member
RecordAceFromNew said:
Won't happen for a very very long time, if ever, imho.

Israel won't "lose", for the same reason why Ukraine can't win - they have adversaries with overwhelmingly asymmetric military power (and 'team' resolve).

Anybody who thinks the US/UK government are having a change of heart because of Israeli crimes are deluded - if that was the case they would have done so during the past 7 decades, now for just a few white aid workers, seriously? The current spectacle is just more smoke and mirror for domestic PR purpose, and as usual you can rely on Trump to say it the way it is. But since they do control all the major political parties AND Western media, any real policy change is unfortunately fantasy.

The irony/karma is that "Israel won't lose" is actually seriously bad news not only for US/UK, but also for the Jews. Trouble for Israel is they have no better alternative than muddling through with status quo no matter how horrendous, because both single state and two state are no solution. The former because with Palestinians being the majority apartheid is a given, the latter because it will mean a full blown civil war with armed settlers in merely Act One.

Oct 7th and what happened since changed nothing of the cold, cruel logic above, except hardening antagony all round. What c35,000 Palestinian lives did buy them, is showing the world the full splendour of a US (and by close subject association UK, Germany etc.) with no clothes, and that their hope is no longer liable to be snuffed out instantly by Saudi/Arab betrayal. I think that is a silver lining, YMMV.
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I fear you are right.
 
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