Israel / Palestine

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Psamathe

Regular
I listened to a good podcast the other day. 2 episodes (fairly recent) and both long episodes about Netanyahu. From his pre-politics/entry into politics, how his stances have developed, etc. Very interesting and not very flattering. Podcast series called Origin Story, episodes 20th and 27th Nov 2024. Not really about current events in Gaza more about Netanyahu and how he's got where he is today.

Ian
 

glasgowcyclist

Über Member
Do some Muslims not instill hatred of Jews and Israel in their children from day one too?

I'm sure some do. But in Israel it's institutionalised and it's Palestinian kids who are dying in the tens of thousands while Israel continues to play the victim and we (UK) actually help them to do it.
 

Psamathe

Regular
Do some Muslims not instill hatred of Jews and Israel in their children from day one too? Have you never seen examples of Palestinians and their supporters celebrating the deaths of Jews? It's nuts to pretend these are one sided occurrences.
How much of that is ideological and how much is driven by the long term ongoing treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli state? If Palestine were a self-controlling country, without Israeli settlers killing Palestinians, without the oppression, etc. would the same be happening?

Ian
 
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I'm sure some do. But in Israel it's institutionalised and it's Palestinian kids who are dying in the tens of thousands while Israel continues to play the victim and we (UK) actually help them to do it.

It's institutionalised in Palestinian schools and mosques too as far as I can see. Over the years the EU parliament has passed several resolutions condemning the antisemitism found in school books used by the Palestinian Authority.

How much of that is ideological and how much is driven by the long term ongoing treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli state? If Palestine were a self-controlling country, without Israeli settlers killing Palestinians, without the oppression, etc. would the same be happening?

Ian

Yes, I think it would. The hatred promulgated by radical Islam and some of its sympathisers isn't just of the Israeli state, it's of Jews in general. If it was just about Israel you wouldn't get vandalism and arson of synagogues and other buildings in other countries. I mean, it's literally in the Hamas covenant to kill Jews - doesn't distinguish by nationality.
 

multitool

Pharaoh
Hamas is not 'The Palestinians'.

And in the grand scheme of genocide, words mean nothing compared to actions.

I can't be bothered to get into the textbook nonsense. All I'll do is remind people that the only voice we ever here is the Israeli voice, or their proxies. There is no Palestinian voice.
 
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She was 15, and she was groomed.

If it is her fault, then presumably you think all 15 year old grooming victims are to blame for their own abuse.

Most 15 year olds can't even name the Prime Minister, let alone know anything about events in a far away country.
abuse and joining an terrorist organization are two different things. We do have a legal precedence over this, if a 15 years old murders or rapes someone in my cases this person is tried as if knowing the consequences of their actions there is no ''but there where groomed to rape that 10 year old'' or '' but they where groomed to kick that grandma to death because she said they should destroy those flowerbeds'' si it's ab bit a a selective argument.


When new neighbours move in next door to me, I don't rush round (before they've even unloaded their belongings) and poke them in the eye with a stick to check if they retaliate. Previous neighbours might have been a real nuisance (loud radios late at night, etc.) but if I want to have a peaceful time with new neighbours, poke in the eye with a stick will not encourage them to be considerate.
now imagine you know said neighbors are convicted peadophiles and you have little children around

New Syrian regime is in no position to retaliate immediately. But Israel is setting the long term agenda on day one, showing how it intends to behave towards its neighbours.

Ian
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You need to look at the whole context, the new neighbors of Isreal are there for a good 10/20 years now, coming as an al-quada offshoot. Still in comparision to for example Afghanistan after the Taliban took back control it seems much better now in Syria, yes there are fractions within the organization that is now the syrian goverment that are looting, take revenge actions on ex-Syrian regime etc. but overall it has been quite dignified. (specially if you hear how terrible Assad really was)

But with the context in mind that the new syrian goverment is formed out of groups previously intending to destroy isreal it'snot so strange their reaction is not so welcoming as you apparently expect.
But thankfully so far the syrian leadership seems to be striving for peace, and probably also see-ing that their succes in ousting Assad has been enabled by Isreal defacto destroying Hezbollah whom previously came to Hamas aid.

How much of that is ideological and how much is driven by the long term ongoing treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli state? If Palestine were a self-controlling country, without Israeli settlers killing Palestinians, without the oppression, etc. would the same be happening?

Ian
Short answer, yes probably. longer version, Just like in Europe, Second world war didn't start the dehumanization of Jews, it was long before that. (only the extermination was new)
Similarly Jews an palestinians are at odds for much longer, long before the forming off the palestinian state or the mass immigration of jews during the Ottoman empire

Off course Isreal's position against palestinians doesn't really help. But using it as a stick to hit with isnt helpfull
 
Hamas is not 'The Palestinians'.

And in the grand scheme of genocide, words mean nothing compared to actions.
Nazi's where not ''the germans'' either yet if you would have been in Nazi germany at his hayday you would feel a strong support for Nazi's similar as there was for Hamas, terror and propaganda does something with people. If you want to get Hamas out of Palestine you need to get Hamas out of the people.
People have only hated Israel since they started misbehaving around 1948. That's when this nastiness all started.
You couldn't be more wrong.
 

Psamathe

Regular
It's institutionalised in Palestinian schools and mosques too as far as I can see. Over the years the EU parliament has passed several resolutions condemning the antisemitism found in school books used by the Palestinian Authority.

Yes, I think it would. The hatred promulgated by radical Islam and some of its sympathisers isn't just of the Israeli state, it's of Jews in general. If it was just about Israel you wouldn't get vandalism and arson of synagogues and other buildings in other countries. I mean, it's literally in the Hamas covenant to kill Jews - doesn't distinguish by nationality.
I'm uncertain. I've spent a fair time in a fair number of different mosques and always found them very welcoming. OK, rarely you come across what I'd describe as a "zealot" but enough welcoming people to make it not an issue.

The most "radical" one was where the Imam had a major disagreement with the Government and had or was imminently talking about issuing a a fatwa against the elected head of Government, but still very welcoming.

My suspicion is that give people the opportunity to live in peace, to create their prosperity, self-determination, etc. and the radicals wont be able to gain enough traction to have a significant impact. But what's happening at the moment provides an ideal situation for the radical views to recruit more to their views and actions.

Ian
 
I'm uncertain. I've spent a fair time in a fair number of different mosques and always found them very welcoming. OK, rarely you come across what I'd describe as a "zealot" but enough welcoming people to make it not an issue.

The most "radical" one was where the Imam had a major disagreement with the Government and had or was imminently talking about issuing a a fatwa against the elected head of Government, but still very welcoming.

My suspicion is that give people the opportunity to live in peace, to create their prosperity, self-determination, etc. and the radicals wont be able to gain enough traction to have a significant impact. But what's happening at the moment provides an ideal situation for the radical views to recruit more to their views and actions.

Ian

The 'welcoming' leader of a mosque you visited was considering issuing a fatwa against a UK prime minister? Not a death fatwa I hope.

Islamic terror threats are 75% of MI5's caseload. There are 1,500 mosques in the UK and yes most of them are going to be benign in their teaching but there are plenty of cases where radical Islam was/is being promoted.
I agree that radicalism of all kinds can be preempted to some extent by building a society in which everybody feels valued but I don't think we should underestimate the reach of such teachings. Their aims aren't to achieve a peaceful multifaith culture so an equitable, prosperous society for their adherents wouldn't deter them, though it may lessen their appeal to some.
 

matticus

Guru
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I feel this should be a NACA badge of honour. It's certainly cheered me up today!
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
I'm uncertain. I've spent a fair time in a fair number of different mosques and always found them very welcoming. OK, rarely you come across what I'd describe as a "zealot" but enough welcoming people to make it not an issue.

The most "radical" one was where the Imam had a major disagreement with the Government and had or was imminently talking about issuing a a fatwa against the elected head of Government, but still very welcoming.

My suspicion is that give people the opportunity to live in peace, to create their prosperity, self-determination, etc. and the radicals wont be able to gain enough traction to have a significant impact. But what's happening at the moment provides an ideal situation for the radical views to recruit more to their views and actions.

Ian

Pretty much my view. I obviously do not have knowledge of EVERY faith/culture squabble in the world, but, IMHO, most are fed by not having those characteristics available.
 

Psamathe

Regular
The 'welcoming' leader of a mosque you visited was considering issuing a fatwa against a UK prime minister? Not a death fatwa I hope.

Islamic terror threats are 75% of MI5's caseload. There are 1,500 mosques in the UK and yes most of them are going to be benign in their teaching but there are plenty of cases where radical Islam was/is being promoted.
I agree that radicalism of all kinds can be preempted to some extent by building a society in which everybody feels valued but I don't think we should underestimate the reach of such teachings. Their aims aren't to achieve a peaceful multifaith culture so an equitable, prosperous society for their adherents wouldn't deter them, though it may lessen their appeal to some.
I've visited a large number of mosques and the welcoming attitudes have been from those worshiping, not aware of having met any Imam and certainly not the one issuing fatwa (he's issued several, some seeking physical violence but I've not bothered to look into details) and not in UK. I'm not privy to any secrets that have not been widely reported.

I just wander in. Avoid Friday prayers. One occasion I arrived just as Friday prayers were starting so found a seat outside and was being offered tea, etc. whilst I waited. Then when prayers were sort of ending (they didn't seem to just end and everybody leaves but rather gradually reduce, some leaving) was called in, given some of the post prayers "food" large clear crystals people were carrying in their palm and eating (and rude to decline).

I suppose my views come from my opinion that most people want to live in peace, have some self-determination (at some level), basically to get on with their lives. As you say, there will always be a more extreme element to occupy the likes of MI5. I've seen it reported that these days the bigger threat is from far-right which is not a religion based ideology.

Ian
 
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