Israel / Palestine

[Rusty Nails]

That is their choice, of course.

I blame working from home. Probably watching telly most of the time.

 

[winjim]

The difference between Islamic terrorism and Jewish terrorism is that we all agree that Islamic terrorism is bad.

Asymmetry. Again. For pity's sake.

Free Palestine 🇵🇸

 

[multitool]

That is their choice, of course.

Indeed. There is a lot to unpack there...

 

[AuroraSaab]

That is their choice, of course.

What do you mean by this? That MI5 are choosing to focus on possible radical Islamic threats rather than other possible threats?

I would like to think they base their focus on whatever the intelligence gathering and evidence directs them towards. In the last 7 years they've thwarted 43 late stage attack plots.

 

[multitool]

How much of that 75% comes to nothing?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Ideally 100%, surely. You'd need to compare it to how much of the other 25% comes to nothing to know whether their focus was/is disproportionate to risk.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqjzy590zdno.amp

"DAC Evans said of the three intended terrorist attacks officers had interrupted in the late-stage of planning in the last 12 months, two were Islamist plots and one was extreme right-wing.

 

[multitool]

Ideally 100%, surely. You'd need to compare it to how much of the other 25% comes to nothing to know whether their focus was/is disproportionate to risk.

You have misunderstood. By "comes to nothing" I did not mean 'were foiled'. I meant 'turned out to not be any serious or credible threat'.

You've quoted a completely decontextualised statistic which, as with many decontextualised statistics, does not tell us as much as you might think, although I understand that this point is lost on those whose debating skills have been honed on twitter which by its nature prevents detail.

So here is the context:

https://www.mi5.gov.uk/director-general-ken-mccallum-gives-latest-threat-update

Pay particular attention to the part where McCullum speaks about how it is becoming increasingly difficult to identify the motives behind plots and the frequent lack of any apparent ideology. Pay attention also to the mention of "mental illness".

 

[theclaud]

Do some Muslims not instill hatred of Jews and Israel in their children from day one too? Have you never seen examples of Palestinians and their supporters celebrating the deaths of Jews? It's nuts to pretend these are one sided occurrences.

Ignoring for a minute the multiple elisions between completely different things, which I imagine comes from imagining some kind amorphous Islamic threat to Western liberal civilization, it's pretty humbling to meet and talk to Palestinians and to discover how rare it is to come across anything remotely mirroring the paranoid, eliminationist mindset that is pretty much de rigueur amongst Israeli settlers, soldiers, the entire political classes and most mainstream Israeli opinion. The thing Palestinians seem to say most often is "Alhamdulillah", whilst on the receiving end of calculated barbarity that would turn most of us into indiscriminate raging psychos.

 

[AuroraSaab]

...... the paranoid, eliminationist mindset that is pretty much de rigueur amongst Israeli settlers, soldiers, the entire political classes and most mainstream Israeli opinion.

This is as blinkered as the claim that all Palestinians support Hamas.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I understand that this point is lost on those whose debating skills have been honed on twitter which by its nature prevents detail.

You are still struggling to have a civil discussion I see.

My comment still stands. You'd need to know how many of the 25% non Islamic threats were not credible threats and compare that to how many of the 75% radical Islamic threats were not credible in order to tell whether MI5 were over focusing on radical Islam.

He doesn't say 'lack of any ideology' - he says 'tenuous grasp of the ideologies they profess to follow'. They have an ideology, whether it's religious or political. As with many of those groomed online they are in thrall to radical ideas they haven't experienced in reality. It doesn't mean you can't file them under being a radical Islamic threat, or a white supremacist threat, or an ultra left wing threat.

As he notes, the difference today is that everything revolves around the Internet and you no longer need to be part of a cell with others in order to be radicalised.

 

[multitool]

You are still struggling to have a civil discussion I see.

No. I'm making a general point about the misuse of statistics in debates on social media

My comment still stands. You'd need to know how many of the 25% non Islamic threats were not credible threats and compare that to how many of the 75% radical Islamic threats were not credible in order to tell whether MI5 were over focusing on radical Islam.

Indeed. And you don't. So your use of this quoted statistic is wrong.

He doesn't say 'lack of any ideology' - he says 'tenuous grasp of the ideologies they profess to follow'. They have an ideology, whether it's religious or political.

Err...no:

"Compared to my years combating Al-Qaeda, it’s harder these days for my investigators and their police counterparts to quickly and definitively determine whether an act of violence is ideologically motivated or driven by another factor like mental health."

 

[AuroraSaab]

Indeed. And you don't. So your use of this quoted statistic is wrong.

I'm not making the claim though, another poster was. He/you also have no idea whether '75% of our work is radical Islam related' can be dismissed because the investigations came to nothing.

"Compared to my years combating Al-Qaeda, it’s harder these days for my investigators and their police counterparts to quickly and definitively determine whether an act of violence is ideologically motivated or driven by another factor like mental health."

There's an element of mental health involved in most mass murders I'd say. He could as easily be referencing the fact that modern terrorist threats are more about radicalised individuals, groomed via the Internet, as opposed to groups of individual working together. He certainly doesn't seem to dismissing ideological/cultural factors. In fact we know from all kinds of online grooming that mental health is an issue, but again that doesn't mean it can't be associated with ideological aims too.

 

[theclaud]

This is as blinkered as the claim that all Palestinians support Hamas.

What are you babbling on about? Israel is 14 months into a genocide and you're still droning on judgementally about the imagined political affiliations of its victims.

 

[matticus]

Islamic terror threats are 75% of MI5's caseload.

That is their choice, of course.

What do you mean by this? That MI5 are choosing to focus on possible radical Islamic threats rather than other possible threats?

Good luck in getting a reply to that! Much more fun to make a gnomic criticism, then clam up when challenged on the detail.

(See also: " I think you'll find it's more complicated than that!" Always an effective rebuttal that one!)

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Don't bother replying to me, Dutchtwat.

I don't read your posts.

Liar like Freddy says:
View: https://youtu.be/oU7rqB9E_0M?si=J6ezdjyiA8gSXEbu

The 'welcoming' leader of a mosque you visited was considering issuing a fatwa against a UK prime minister? Not a death fatwa I hope.

Islamic terror threats are 75% of MI5's caseload. There are 1,500 mosques in the UK and yes most of them are going to be benign in their teaching but there are plenty of cases where radical Islam was/is being promoted.

The problem of radicals is always going to be a minority however if a certain group is responisble for the majority of terror plots surely their high on the list.

I agree that radicalism of all kinds can be preempted to some extent by building a society in which everybody feels valued but I don't think we should underestimate the reach of such teachings. Their aims aren't to achieve a peaceful multifaith culture so an equitable, prosperous society for their adherents wouldn't deter them, though it may lessen their appeal to some.

The language of the extremist does not have that goal, they want their god to be superieur, and his teaching to be followed by exactly their readings. They just the same justification to kill the police officer coming after the attackers off Charlie Hebdo.. ''His actions was not aking to a ''real muslim'' so he deserved to die. (words Isis at the time used, not my opinion, Yes Multilair, that too was known to the 15 year old you claimed was groomed)

I've visited a large number of mosques and the welcoming attitudes have been from those worshiping, not aware of having met any Imam and certainly not the one issuing fatwa (he's issued several, some seeking physical violence but I've not bothered to look into details) and not in UK. I'm not privy to any secrets that have not been widely reported.

I don't really know what your point is? ''they didn't do me any harm therefore it must be ''safe'' ? Off course they have an welcoming attitude so does the church, the budist temple etc. etc. does not mean that at the same time the preacher/imam etc. may call for total destruction of ''unbelievers'' having said that i think the problem of hate-spreading imam's is small, it's not like there are a thousands Isis's around, it's just that they are very well organized and hidden. A big contrast with often referred to far or extreme right groups, it's not that they have better intentions, it's just that they are not so well organized and thus take much less police resources to monitor and detain if needed.
But the problem is more that of silent support, for example when one of the surviving Bataclan assailants was on the run, he was sheltered in the Molenbeek area of Brussels of weeks, not all of them providing him shelter may agree with the violent goals but they helped nonetheless.

I suppose my views come from my opinion that most people want to live in peace, have some self-determination (at some level), basically to get on with their lives. As you say, there will always be a more extreme element to occupy the likes of MI5. I've seen it reported that these days the bigger threat is from far-right which is not a religion based ideology.

Ian

There is a dutch Lady with Turkish roots called Lala Gul, just getting on with her life(she is an writer) has left her with death threats from her community so it's not so simple as you say.