Israel / Palestine

[C R]

Please don't sigh, it makes you sound sad! We don't want that

Thankyou for your additional information, and your kind, patient attempts to educate me. I have a further question:
Wasn't Mandatory Palestine an entity controlled by the British (or the UK, I suppose)? Is that an independent state, or more like a colony?

Yours, in love and pedantry,
M

It was technically a protectorate, IIRC. The Israeli estate is effectively a continuation of the colonial situation, now following the footsteps of apartheid South Africa.

 

[Ian H]

It was technically a protectorate, IIRC. The Israeli estate is effectively a continuation of the colonial situation, now following the footsteps of apartheid South Africa.

During the mandate Zionist groups attacked the British. Look up Irgun, the Stern Gang or Lehi.
Once the mandate expired expulsions of Arabs started in earnest, there was the first Arab-Zionist war, and the Israeli state was founded.

 

[Pblakeney]

Please don't sigh, it makes you sound sad! We don't want that

Thankyou for your additional information, and your kind, patient attempts to educate me. I have a further question:
Wasn't Mandatory Palestine an entity controlled by the British (or the UK, I suppose)? Is that an independent state, or more like a colony?

Yours, in love and pedantry,
M

Getting back to my original point, why can’t Britain recognise a state that it created (call it part of the empire if you wish) and walked away from because it became problematic?
Because it became problematic, and here we are today with bigger problems.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Perhaps it being non democratic and run by terrorists is a sticking point.

 

[Pblakeney]

Perhaps it being non democratic and run by terrorists is a sticking point.

Perhaps we should have taken it seriously earlier rather than washing our hands.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There's lots of things in the middle east we should have done differently but unfortunately we are where we are. I don't see how recognising a state run by terrorists will do much other than give legitimacy to an oppressive misogynist, homophobic outfit. It will do nothing to establish a democratic state in Gaza; it will only set a precedent and encourage the likes of Boko Haram and other fundamentalist groups to do the same.

 

[C R]

Perhaps it being non democratic and run by terrorists is a sticking point.

Indeed, it should have been clear in 1948 that recognising the estate created by Irgun would not work well in the long term.

 

[matticus]

Indeed, it should have been clear in 1948 that recognising the estate created by Irgun would not work well in the long term.

Maybe ... but what do you suggest? Controlling their country for them until they prove they're grown-up enough to run their own democracy? How does that work - are there exams to pass?

Does the UK have to take responsiblity every time bad things happen in ex-Empire regions, until the end of time?

 

[Pblakeney]

There's lots of things in the middle east we should have done differently but unfortunately we are where we are. I don't see how recognising a state run by terrorists will do much other than give legitimacy to an oppressive misogynist, homophobic outfit. It will do nothing to establish a democratic state in Gaza; it will only set a precedent and encourage the likes of Boko Haram and other fundamentalist groups to do the same.

I guess that there are a lot of states we no longer recognise then.
Not recognising a state we created just because it became awkward strikes me as pitiful. We cannot simply say “nowt to do with us”.

 

[AuroraSaab]

It's different withdrawing recognition because they've descended into authoritarianism or terrorism under the current regime (eg Afghanistan) and actively choosing to recognise one that is that at the moment. I think a Hamas run state is more than 'awkward' and our historical culpability (whatever that even means) shouldn't embarrass us into endorsing their legitimacy.

 

[Ian H]

Getting back to my original point, why can’t Britain recognise a state that it created (call it part of the empire if you wish) and walked away from because it became problematic?
Because it became problematic, and here we are today with bigger problems.

The UK didn't create Israel, it merely acquiesced in its creation.

 

[Psamathe]

Getting back to my original point, why can’t Britain recognise a state that it created

Britain can. It's Starmer who won't.

Ian

 

[Ian H]

The UK didn't create Israel, it merely acquiesced in its creation.

Plus of course, before that, there were various schemes to settle Jews in different Western countries, all of which foundered because of racist objections.

 

[Psamathe]

Perhaps it being non democratic and run by terrorists is a sticking point.

Consideration is to recognise "Palestine", not "Gaza".

Ian

 

[C R]

It's different withdrawing recognition because they've descended into authoritarianism or terrorism under the current regime (eg Afghanistan) and actively choosing to recognise one that is that at the moment. I think a Hamas run state is more than 'awkward' and our historical culpability (whatever that even means) shouldn't embarras us into endorsing their legitimacy.

If it was fine to recognise Israel in 1948, despite the actions of Irgun and Haganah, under the guise of the sympathy generated by the holocaust, why is it a problem to do the same for the Palestinians now? Is it because they are not white?

ETA. For instance, Menachem Begin, leader of the Irgun, and likely planner of the King David Hotel bombing, was denied visas to the UK during the 50s as he was considered the leader of a terrorist organisation. He went on to be defence minister and then prime minister of Israel. Is it only Polish terrorists that can be rehabilitated?