Oh no!! Brexit not going quite as well as hoped

[Ian H]

On the left you have the Labour voter who thinks that all industry should be renationalised, all rich people should be taxes at 100% so that the money can be distributed across the population, private schools should be banned, wages should be capped etc.

Where do I sign up ?

The Socialist Workers' Party is that << way. The Labour Party has never been socialist in the proper meaning of the word. The Labour left is broadly in favour of a mixed economy with public services in public ownership, progressive taxation, decent benefits & a reset of labour/employee relations.

 

[winjim]

They are definitely more than just words, although it's always 'just words ' it's the meaning that has import, and variance


I like to think I try to avoid 'class war' as imo it does far more to keep us scrapping with each other, rather than working together for what's really important..

But my objection to being addressed as if a public schoolgirl, clearly shows I'm not totally immune to a bit of bristling at such 'class' pigeonholing not neither..

If you only knew how easy it would be to show me how you feel.

 

[BoldonLad]

Then why not give us all the clear definitions so we in NACA can sing from the same song sheet?

The realpolitik is that the mindless majority have no idea what these 'clear definitions' are and view and discuss such terms from where they stand. Not space-filling nor bureaucracy.

Quite

 

[Milkfloat]

When the BNP and the NF were marching did you really think that "the mindless majority" had no clue about them being the Far Right?

Or as CC's top polluter are you so removed from reality that you think those minions below your business class ass have no F-ing clue ???

You know those definitions are in common parlance and have been for decades so stop being a dick.

Blimey, grumpy day?

I confess that I often have no idea when people wave around terms like left and right especially when their detailed arguments on a topic seem to go against what they claim is left and right.

 

[mudsticks]

If you only knew how easy it would be to show me how you feel.

Don't tell me - these are lyrics you've nicked off of Adeles' latest breakup album ??

 

[theclaud]

The Socialist Workers' Party is that << way. The Labour Party has never been socialist in the proper meaning of the word. The Labour left is broadly in favour of a mixed economy with public services in public ownership, progressive taxation, decent benefits & a reset of labour/employee relations.

I've long thought that Blair's erstwhile electoral appeal, and his continuing fetishization amongst what I will (probably to their annoyance) call 'centrists' is the implicit promise of doing away with class conflict. Of course, this was always an ideological proposition - a radical re-framing - and never a commitment to transforming material conditions and employment power relations or liberating people en masse from a socio-economic position not of their choosing. I'm aware that this argument will inevitably prompt the usual defences of Blair in terms of the expansion of higher education and so on, but the question is always 'to what end?'

 

[theclaud]

When the BNP and the NF were marching did you really think that "the mindless majority" had no clue about them being the Far Right?

Or as CC's top polluter are you so removed from reality that you think those minions below your business class ass have no F-ing clue ???

You know those definitions are in common parlance and have been for decades so stop being a dick.

Blimey. I feel like I've missed an episode in a big ongoing barney. I think FF has a point - yes there are agreed definitions which work in particular contexts, but all those terms are contested in various contexts, and there is a huge disjunction between people's understanding of their identities in class terms and any of the prevailing forms of socio-economic classification, as well as big questions about whether the latter are remotely adequate to describe contemporary economic roles and conditions. In terms of relative concepts like Far Right - people recognise fringe actors as far right where they would not describe more mainstream ones in the same terms, even if they espouse identical political positions. Also there's a gap between the 'objective' sense of 'extreme' (at either end of a spectrum of political positions), and the relation of a particular position to mainstream opinion or discourse (the Overton window or equivalent concepts) - which positions objectively extreme positions as moderate and vice versa. Drowning people in the sea versus Broadband Communism and so on.

 

[swansonj]

Corbyn was widely categorised as hard left or extreme left. But I'd suggest that his policies were pretty much in line with Atlee, whom I've never heard described that way. Johnson, Patel, Rees Mogg etc are clearly considerably more right-wing than say Heath, but when we describe them as hard right we are told that is not correct. Anyone who believes these terms have any absolute meaning is, I'd suggest, somewhat blinkered. When I use them, I am honest enough to say it is for rhetorical effect, not because I think they have absolute meaning.

 

[BoldonLad]

Blimey. I feel like I've missed an episode in a big ongoing barney. I think FF has a point - yes there are agreed definitions which work in particular contexts, but all those terms are contested in various contexts, and there is a huge disjunction between people's understanding of their identities in class terms and any of the prevailing forms of socio-economic classification, as well as big questions about whether the latter are remotely adequate to describe contemporary economic roles and conditions. In terms of relative concepts like Far Right - people recognise fringe actors as far right where they would not describe more mainstream ones in the same terms, even if they espouse identical political positions. Also there's a gap between the 'objective' sense of 'extreme' (at either end of a spectrum of political positions), and the relation of a particular position to mainstream opinion or discourse (the Overton window or equivalent concepts) - which positions objectively extreme positions as moderate and vice versa. Drowning people in the sea versus Broadband Communism and so on.

Lots of big words in there, but, to my ignorant view, it says, in simple terms, the terms in question (Right wing, Centre, Left Wing, Working class etc) are, at best, ill defined.

Do I need a bigger dictionary?

 

[farfromtheland]

I've long thought that Blair's erstwhile electoral appeal, and his continuing fetishization amongst what I will (probably to their annoyance) call 'centrists' is the implicit promise of doing away with class conflict. Of course, this was always an ideological proposition - a radical re-framing - and never a commitment to transforming material conditions and employment power relations or liberating people en masse from a socio-economic position not of their choosing. I'm aware that this argument will inevitably prompt the usual defences of Blair in terms of the expansion of higher education and so on, but the question is always 'to what end?'

The other question is 'by what means?'.

(Pause to thank Snail for my correcting my summary of Blair's demise - though I do hold that Gordon had to take over for strong reasons, one of which was that Tony had blotted his copy book.)

Education is the the biggest issue for me. I have been reading Thatcher's accounts of the start of the National Curriculum in 'The Downing Street Years'. Interestingly she took a view that its implementation was flawed, being too prescriptive. I agree to a large extent, though for very different reasons. The result was a general 'dumbing down' though. Teachers had little or no time for exploring ideas. Blair's extension of higher education then became a travesty, even if the academic impact had been positive - which I question given 'bums on seats' university recruitment - it had to be paid for in fees and debt. We lost a lot of Polytecnics doing practical engineering too.

If this was part of a project to do away with class conflict it was successful. Defining 'middle classness' has become somewhere the left fears to tread, but massive debt is a force for conformity. If students from traditional working class backgrounds wanted higher education they had to take debt on, even if rather notional and means tested. This was a big ideological re-framing indeed. Debt became normal. Working and middle class were merged. We may all call ourselves working class on a simple economic basis but we now have more complex vested interest in capitalism.

 

[theclaud]

Lots of big words in there, but, to my ignorant view, it says, in simple terms, the terms in question are, at best, ill defined.

Do I need a bigger dictionary?

Which are the big words? I think 'classification' is the biggest and I reckon you know what that means. I reckon there aren't many words there that you don't either know what they mean or could work it out from the context. Kassenbandwarelegeaktivät - that's a big word.

Not ill-defined really, as they are concepts that people spend a lot of time defining. Just that definitions which work fine in one context don't necessarily work in another, and usages clash. Sometimes this is just people talking at cross-purposes, but more often it is because it's not really the words they are arguing about, but the ideas or identities.

 

[farfromtheland]

Corbyn was widely categorised as hard left or extreme left. But I'd suggest that his policies were pretty much in line with Atlee, whom I've never heard described that way. Johnson, Patel, Rees Mogg etc are clearly considerably more right-wing than say Heath, but when we describe them as hard right we are told that is not correct. Anyone who believes these terms have any absolute meaning is, I'd suggest, somewhat blinkered. When I use them, I am honest enough to say it is for rhetorical effect, not because I think they have absolute meaning.

Corbyn was/is a principled social democrat. He could have been a socialist. Taking leadership when party policy was not socialist was a big problem for him.

Johnson, Patel and Rees Mogg can be called Neo-Liberal, judging by their think tank allegiances. Very similar aims to the extreme right but with more sophisticated manifestations.

 

[Rusty Nails]

That's just quibbling for the sake of it , were you very bored ?

Well yes, I was a bit bored. But it does seem that far/hard/extreme left/right can mean anything to anyone whose views are either at the opposite end of the political spectrum or even those who consider themselves moderates. Too easy to use in a pejorative way to describe people without thinking about specific policies.

 

[farfromtheland]

Well yes, I was a bit bored. But it does seem that far/hard/extreme left/right can mean anything to anyone whose views are either at the opposite end of the political spectrum or even those who consider themselves moderates. Too easy to use in a pejorative way to describe people without thinking about specific policies.

Being considered moderate can be a problem too.

Tory governments tend to try to appeal to the middle ground, but have to keep on their edge not to alienate the right wing - as with Boris now. Labour governments try to appeal to the middle ground, but don't feel comparable pressure to keep their left wing happy, but rather the opposite, because of the power of the media.

Net result is centre is skewed to the right.

 

[BoldonLad]

Which are the big words? I think 'classification' is the biggest and I reckon you know what that means. I reckon there aren't many words there that you don't either know what they mean or could work it out from the context. Kassenbandwarelegeaktivät - that's a big word.

Not ill-defined really, as they are concepts that people spend a lot of time defining. Just that definitions which work fine in one context don't necessarily work in another, and usages clash. Sometimes this is just people talking at cross-purposes, but more often it is because it's not really the words they are arguing about, but the ideas or identities.

I would call that, "ill defined".

Big words = words not in common use in my local pub, rather than the number of letters in the word, so, "disjunction" would qualify, as would "socio-economic".

I admit to be just a little facetious. (winking smiley omitted so as not to offend).