Random Daily Banter

[briantrumpet]

Are there other Latin dialects named after different fish?

I refuse to start the fish puns.

 

[First Aspect]

I doubt if a bit of cod Latin would have that effect. Mind you, it did end a Prime Minister's career, so you might have a point.

Yes but if we can't have vicarious expertise, then there is no expertise. And NO FORUM Brian.

 

[briantrumpet]

Yes but if we can't have vicarious expertise, then there is no expertise. And NO FORUM Brian.

Who on the forum is claiming *expertise* outside of their own area of, erm, expertise? (I'm going to spoil your joke as well, as per @Ian H's observation).

Isn't the fun being ignorant but making wild observations about other areas than your own? I think most of us just enjoy making shit up.

But...

If I then claim I'm right on a matter of corporate tax because Noam Chomsky said something on the matter, I'd expect to get shot down, by a real expert, with a charge of argumentum ad verecundiam!! (even if they are long words, so only to be used by radical socialists, obvs)

 

[First Aspect]

Who on the forum is claiming *expertise* outside of their own area of, erm, expertise? (I'm going to spoil your joke as well, as per @Ian H's observation).

Isn't the fun being ignorant but making wild observations about other areas than your own? I think most of us just enjoy making shit up.

But...

If I then claim I'm right on a matter of corporate tax because Noam Chomsky said something on the matter, I'd expect to get shot down, by a real expert, with a charge of argumentum ad verecundiam!! (even if they are long words, so only to be used by radical socialists, obvs)

Well PP for one stays entirely within his own expertise. Thankfully he is omnipotent.

Others, such as myself, know nothing, but are adept at Google.

 

[briantrumpet]

Well PP for one stays entirely within his own expertise. Thankfully he is omnipotent.

Others, such as myself, know nothing, but are adept at Google.

No doubt you're looking forward to Google's planned transformation into a chatty AI LLM discourse rather than a series of links from your Boolean searches.

 

[briantrumpet]

Well, you learn something new every day. Apparently an American zoo is now housing a stowaway UK fox that they've called 'Basil', and they are having to educate Americans on how to pronounce his name. Turns out that Americans say the word 'basil' as "bayssul".

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english-pronunciations/basil

 

[First Aspect]

Yes, they pronounce "baysil" like the urb.

 

[briantrumpet]

Yes, they pronounce "baysil" like the urb.

Someone should breed a variety of basil called 'ganglia'.

 

[Ian H]

Well, you learn something new every day. Apparently an American zoo is now housing a stowaway UK fox that they've called 'Basil', and they are having to educate Americans on how to pronounce his name. Turns out that Americans say the word 'basil' as "bayssul".

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english-pronunciations/basil

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I wonder how 18th C English folk pronounced it.

 

[briantrumpet]

Totally randomly

 

[briantrumpet]

I wonder how 18th C English folk pronounced it.

As it comes from the French 'basile' from back in the C15, I think it unlikely that the S has ever been unvoiced in British English.

 

[Ian H]

As it comes from the French 'basile' from back in the C15, I think it unlikely that the S has ever been unvoiced in British English.

I was thinking more of the diphthong A.

 

[briantrumpet]

I was thinking more of the diphthong A.

Ah, OK - but I think the same would probably apply. Gemini agrees with my hunch.

The pronunciation history of the herb "basil" in British English is a fascinating case of a word staying remarkably true to its linguistic roots while American English took a completely different phonetic path.

In British English, the standard pronunciation has consistently been "BAZ-uhl" ($/\text{ˈbæz.əl}/$, rhyming with dazzle).

Here is how history shaped how the British say the word today.

1. The Ancient Roots: "The King of Herbs"​

The word traces back to Ancient Greek:

• It stems from $\beta\alpha\sigma\iota\lambda\varepsilon\dot{\upsilon}\varsigma$ (basileus), meaning "king."
• This evolved into the adjective $\beta\alpha\sigma\iota\lambda\iota\kappa\text{ó}\nu$ (basilikon), meaning "royal."
• In the ancient world, basil was associated with royalty, used in royal medicines, perfumes, and even rituals.

In the original Greek, the first syllable utilized a short "ah" sound ($/\text{a}/$ or $/\text{æ}/$), and the "s" sound eventually softened into a "z" sound ($/\text{z}/$) in later European Latin variants (basilicum).

2. The French Connection and Middle English​

When the herb arrived in England around the 15th century, it came via Old French (basile).

Middle English adopted the short vowel sound naturally. Words borrowed from French that featured an "a" followed by a single consonant often retained a short vowel sound in English if they were adopted before certain phonetic shifts took place, or if they were patterned after existing English names. Because the male name "Basil" was already established with a short "a," the herb and the name locked into the same pronunciation: "BAZ-uhl."

3. Why it Didn't Shift (Unlike the US)​

You might wonder why it didn't succumb to the Great Vowel Shift (a massive change in English pronunciation between 1400 and 1700 where long vowels shifted "upward").

While American English shifted to "BAY-zuhl" ($/\text{ˈbeɪ.zəl}/$) due to a linguistic phenomenon called spelling pronunciation—where speakers guess the sound based purely on how the letters look (assuming the "a" should be long because it is followed by a single consonant)—the UK firmly resisted this.

For centuries, British dictionaries, including the definitive Oxford English Dictionary (OED), have recognized only one standard pronunciation for the common noun and the proper name alike.

A Historical Quirk:
While "BAZ-uhl" rules England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, parts of Scotland actually lean closer to the long-vowel "BAY-zuhl" variant, showing a minor regional exception within British culinary history.

 

[briantrumpet]

I guess it's because Derek Jacobi was so young when he played Claudius (and that his aging through acting and makeup was done pretty well) that I'm surprised he's still alive and 'only' 87

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2026/may/22/derek-jacobi-aids-ageing-interview

 

[First Aspect]

Ah, OK - but I think the same would probably apply. Gemini agrees with my hunch.

I asked Google how Chuck Norris would pronounce it:-

AI Overview
Chuck Norris wouldn't say "Basil." Basil would say Chuck Norris.
If it absolutely had to slip past his beard, he wouldn't use the British "bah-sil" or the American "bay-sil"—he would simply say "Roundhouse."