Rees Mogg

[BoldonLad]

How would you feel if she is repatriated, gets off scots(sic) free and for example, studies to become a doctor and invents a cure for cancer?
How would you feel if she is repatriated,gets off scots(sic) free and for example, studies to become a scientist and contributes to discovering what Dark Matter is?
How would you feel if she is repatriated,gets off scots(sic) free and for example, becomes a housewife and sets up a wellbeing centre?

Why is it always the negative thing that is used as the example?

The point is that whataboutery gets us nowhere. She is a British Citizen. If we bring her back to the UK and she gets off scot free she will still be monitored by the intelligence agencies. We will know where she is and what she is doing. She ceases to be a threat and could be a resource to lead us to greater threats. There is no benefit to the UK in disowning her.

Frankly as I have a 14 and 16 year old girl, I can confidently say that these three girls had very little idea of what they were doing. Questions should be asked of who they were talking to. Someone groomed them, fed them the information that led to them going to Syria. At 15 you don't just pop over to Syria on the off chance.

I wonder if your daughters share your opinion of their limitations?

Perhaps not to Syria, but, equally arduous journeys are made by 15 year olds, are they not?

 

[AuroraSaab]

They are. Girls (and boys) of all ages leave home to meet adults who have groomed them over the Internet all the time, sometimes travelling the length of the country. It's usually for sex though. I think it's more an indication of how determined and fixated, and gullible, young people can be than it is a sign of maturity. Kids can be resourceful enough to organise a trip abroad but still be immature enough to be brainwashed or groomed. It happens to adults with religious cults all the time, and kids will be easier still to groom.

She is our responsibility and we should take her back. She might well be a horrible person. We don't base the criteria of whether we are responsible on how nice the person is though.

 

[icowden]

I wonder if your daughters share your opinion of their limitations?

Yep. They haven't got up the courage to take the train to visit granny yet!

 

[AuroraSaab]

As an aside, I interviewed a Moonie once. Swedish girl, early 20's, who was very smiley but hadn't seen her parents for 2 years. She was cheery as anything but it made me very sad.

 

[multitool]

I'm not your assuming i'm making assumptions, maybe in you left minded bubble everything always okidokiland but i live in the real world and i see real issues. The issue of radicalization isn't knew, neither where the intentions of IS before Begum and others joined.

IS maybe came falling out of the sky for you but for others it wasn't an besides are you seriously trying to make people believe that she did'nt investigate for a little bit what it was about?
Okidokiland again? IS surely had a sleek PR however violence was a very big part of that PR the other part was religion. i'm not going to speculate on what drove her to go there but i do say that based on everything what was happening and no you didn't need to follow news affairs very closely to understand what was happening at the time she joined. It was all over.
Are you now trying to educate me over the existence of something i referred to multiple times? really? I have read the source directly i don't need an acadamic analysis to tell me what was written there..
They abused the religion just as Hitler abused the already widespread hatred against Jews at the time, and claimed Joining IS was an holy call so yes they did a lot to recruit poeple, but the main issue explaining their effectiveness is that they play on one side the victim card on the other side engage hatred against the west.

But enough about that, i can keep on posting links, articles etc. to explain to you that in 2015 it was very clear to anyone what isis was, but reality has made it a bit easyer.

A few quotes ''Documentary maker Andrew Drury, who has travelled to Syria to speak to the 23-year-old on several occasions, said Begum is a 'narcissist' who 'sees herself as a victim'.''
''The Times quotes him as saying: 'She sees herself as a victim now but she told me quite clearly it was her choice to go [to Syria] and she went of her own free will''
'''She is a narcissist. She wants to be a somebody. Now she sees herself as a celebrity. Being part of Isis meant she was a somebody and now she's a somebody again.'''

full article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...m-Syria-brands-narcissist-sees-celebrity.html
Now you can off course attack that documentary maker but i think that person can judge someone he was defending earlier mind you, better than a me or anyone else from behind a compute

Did you know there is no equivalent for 'non sequitur' in the Dutch language?

 

[Ian H]

Did you know there is no equivalent for 'non sequitur' in the Dutch language?

Does that mean they don't know when they're doing it? I've heard it's very flat over there.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Does that mean they don't know when they're doing it? I've heard it's very flat over there.

Having just spent the best part of 6 hrs driving up and down it today, I can confirm it's true....

 

[Unkraut]

I wonder if your daughters share your opinion of their limitations?

Do you have in mind the inconsistency of claiming that Begum as a 15 year old was too young to be able to decide about joining ISIS whereas when it comes to something like transgenderism (other threads are available!) they are considered to old enough to make life-changing and sometimes irreversible decisions?

I'm not sure the British government has a moral obligation to take her back. You cannot always use state power to prevent people from reaping what they have sown.

Maybe there is a case for showing her mercy and allowing her back, but if so I would have thought it reasonable to make this conditional on her actually making a clean and permanent break with her past. The evidence she has done so seems to me to be mixed. It is reasonable to expect she should not return to type and become a danger again should she return.

 

[icowden]

I'm not sure the British government has a moral obligation to take her back. You cannot always use state power to prevent people from reaping what they have sown.

She was born here. *That's* the moral obligation. She is British. Sajid Javid claimed that she had dual nationality as Bangladeshi. Bangladesh said "no she hasn't". Her parents are Bangladeshi, but Shamina has never been there. The British Government got away with it as Bangladesh has some interesting and very complex rules about citizenship, one of which is that a person born to a citizen of Bangladesh shall also be Bangladeshi. Although dual nationality is not allowed, so you cease to be a citizen of Bangladesh if you have another nationality but that *only* applies if you are over 21.

So the Saj has essentially put her in a position where the only country she can "return" to is one where she knows no-one, and would likely be executed.

Hands up all of those that think
a) Shamina will just settle in Syria and hope everything gets better.
b) Shamina will likely go back to ISIS and assist terrorism
c) Something else

I'm pretty sure it won't be (a).
Better would be to have her back in the UK to be kept under surveillance, and used as possible bait. But Saj prefers to keep Murdoch happy.

 

[BoldonLad]

Do you have in mind the inconsistency of claiming that Begum as a 15 year old was too young to be able to decide about joining ISIS whereas when it comes to something like transgenderism (other threads are available!) they are considered to old enough to make life-changing and sometimes irreversible decisions?

I'm not sure the British government has a moral obligation to take her back. You cannot always use state power to prevent people from reaping what they have sown.

Maybe there is a case for showing her mercy and allowing her back, but if so I would have thought it reasonable to make this conditional on her actually making a clean and permanent break with her past. The evidence she has done so seems to me to be mixed. It is reasonable to expect she should not return to type and become a danger again should she return.

Among other things.

Unaccompanied minors in rubber boats springs to mind, but, I am sure there are other examples.

 

[newfhouse]

Among other things.

Unaccompanied minors in rubber boats springs to mind, but, I am sure there are other examples.

You don’t think children are ever forced to bear arms in war torn countries?

 

[BoldonLad]

You don’t think children are ever forced to bear arms in war torn countries?

I am sure they are. My point was that many 15 year olds, may be capable of a little more than getting on a bus or train.

 

[newfhouse]

I am sure they are. My point was that many 15 year olds, may be capable of a little more than getting on a bus or train.

Children develop into adults at different rates. Just imagine if we had processes in place that would allow arguments about maturity, responsibility, and culpability to be teased out, maybe with judgements then made about appropriate care, rehabilitation, and/or punishment.

 

[BoldonLad]

Children develop into adults at different rates. Just imagine if we had processes in place that would allow arguments about maturity, responsibility, and culpability to be teased out, maybe with judgements then made about appropriate care, rehabilitation, and/or punishment.

Yes, just imagine. Much too complicated, far better to base it all on the experiences/abilities of typical child in the affluent South of England.

 

[mudsticks]

Children develop into adults at different rates. Just imagine if we had processes in place that would allow arguments about maturity, responsibility, and culpability to be teased out, maybe with judgements then made about appropriate care, rehabilitation, and/or punishment.

Just imagine...

There need to be far more counter action to the online 'influencing' of young and or gullible minds online, all round.

The great gouts of misinformation, and seductive easy answers, the 'do as I say, and you can have it all' type messaging that draws people into believing and following groups, or individuals.

I guess it starts with education, but that needs to be for everyone in contact with young people too.
For instance I was (a bit) astonished at how many on here who claim to have children, and grandchildren, hadn't heard of the likes of grifting misogynist Andrew Tate and his millions of gullible followers.

As is often the case it just elicited a 'nothing to do with me, so not my problem' type response.

Whereas in truth it's to do with all of us.