Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

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Dorset Boy

Regular
And the lack of investment is of course the fault of the people with more melamine and funny accents.

The point is that there is a section of low income / never worked househlds who feel they have been left behind as other sections of society have become significantly wealthier - the wealth divide has grown significantly in the last 25 years or so.
At Brexit, those left behind voted for change, any change.
They feel failed by the traditional parties.
They seem Reform as offering the chance of change and like with Brexit, feel they have nothing to lose.
They then see / hear of assylum seekers / illegal immigrants being put up in hotels and fed, whilst they struggle to feed their own families and feel that is wrong. Those hotels and those who have been put up there then become a focal point to express their anger / frustration, and that is whipped up further by the Reform rhetoric.
It again isn't helped when crimes are committed by applicants, even though crimes are committed by permanent residents too, and the feeling that many of the applicants follow a religion that does not respect the rights of women, is anti western, and has a very different 'code' to the way we live in the UK.

None of this is aided by the traditional parties failing utterly to put across the message that we need controlled immigation, and have obligations to look after refugees etc. Or by getting the applications processed quickly, or perhaps by housing the applicant on the many unused MOD sites across the country.

Now, we may totally disagree with them that change will only be worse, but we have to understand where they are coming from, and it is really unhelpful when people throw insults at them.
 

Pross

Active Member
One of the more amusing things I saw during the Brexit campaign was someone on the local news saying how they were going to vote to leave as the EU does nothing for us whilst standing right in front of a hoarding for the Heads of the Valleys road improvement proudly proclaiming how the project was being funded by the EU. It reminded me of The Life Of Brian and 'what have the Romans ever done for us?'.
 

All uphill

Well-Known Member
The point is that there is a section of low income / never worked househlds who feel they have been left behind as other sections of society have become significantly wealthier - the wealth divide has grown significantly in the last 25 years or so.
At Brexit, those left behind voted for change, any change.
They feel failed by the traditional parties.
They seem Reform as offering the chance of change and like with Brexit, feel they have nothing to lose.
They then see / hear of assylum seekers / illegal immigrants being put up in hotels and fed, whilst they struggle to feed their own families and feel that is wrong. Those hotels and those who have been put up there then become a focal point to express their anger / frustration, and that is whipped up further by the Reform rhetoric.
It again isn't helped when crimes are committed by applicants, even though crimes are committed by permanent residents too, and the feeling that many of the applicants follow a religion that does not respect the rights of women, is anti western, and has a very different 'code' to the way we live in the UK.

None of this is aided by the traditional parties failing utterly to put across the message that we need controlled immigation, and have obligations to look after refugees etc. Or by getting the applications processed quickly, or perhaps by housing the applicant on the many unused MOD sites across the country.

Now, we may totally disagree with them that change will only be worse, but we have to understand where they are coming from, and it is really unhelpful when people throw insults at them.

Well said.

One things certain, if a person is throwing insults it means they have stopped listening.
 
The point is that there is a section of low income / never worked househlds who feel they have been left behind as other sections of society have become significantly wealthier - the wealth divide has grown significantly in the last 25 years or so.
At Brexit, those left behind voted for change, any change.
They feel failed by the traditional parties.
They seem Reform as offering the chance of change and like with Brexit, feel they have nothing to lose.
They then see / hear of assylum seekers / illegal immigrants being put up in hotels and fed, whilst they struggle to feed their own families and feel that is wrong. Those hotels and those who have been put up there then become a focal point to express their anger / frustration, and that is whipped up further by the Reform rhetoric.
It again isn't helped when crimes are committed by applicants, even though crimes are committed by permanent residents too, and the feeling that many of the applicants follow a religion that does not respect the rights of women, is anti western, and has a very different 'code' to the way we live in the UK.

None of this is aided by the traditional parties failing utterly to put across the message that we need controlled immigation, and have obligations to look after refugees etc. Or by getting the applications processed quickly, or perhaps by housing the applicant on the many unused MOD sites across the country.

Now, we may totally disagree with them that change will only be worse, but we have to understand where they are coming from, and it is really unhelpful when people throw insults at them.

The major issue that we have always had in the UK is class inequality. We have, for centuries, had a ruling elite (politically and economically) that will seek to protect their wealth and interests at all costs. This is always the reason why at any given point we have a working class that feels disenfranchised and left behind. The ruling class like to keep the working class in check and deflect any attention from the fact that they are the real gatekeepers and drive the huge wealth and power divide. The best way to do this is to create a scapegoat, and immigrants/foreigners are nearly always at the top of the list, this has been prominent through the 20th and into the current century.

This is the real issue. If we lived in a society that actively sought to reduce inequality and levelled up society, immigration would for most be an irrelevance. If you are financially comfortable, able to access good quality public services and have a decent standard of living, you don't go looking for answers as to why you are struggling, and are therefore not susceptible to the lies politicians and other bad faith actors feed you in return.
 

Psamathe

Veteran

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
I read it once and though about beaker people!!

I suspect an autocorrect of melanin......

OK, I did suspect that may be the case. If that is so, I would very much doubt it 😂, more to do with the need to appease devolution/independance and the lack of marginal Parliamentary seats (IMHO, of course).

The lack of Marginals is, I suspect, changing now, judging by what is happening in Local Elections, and the anti-Reform hysteria among the Local Labour supporters.
 
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matticus

Guru
The point is that there is a section of low income / never worked househlds who feel they have been left behind as other sections of society have become significantly wealthier - the wealth divide has grown significantly in the last 25 years or so.
At Brexit, those left behind voted for change, any change.
They feel failed by the traditional parties.
They seem Reform as offering the chance of change and like with Brexit, feel they have nothing to lose.
They then see / hear of assylum seekers / illegal immigrants being put up in hotels and fed, whilst they struggle to feed their own families and feel that is wrong. Those hotels and those who have been put up there then become a focal point to express their anger / frustration, and that is whipped up further by the Reform rhetoric.
It again isn't helped when crimes are committed by applicants, even though crimes are committed by permanent residents too, and the feeling that many of the applicants follow a religion that does not respect the rights of women, is anti western, and has a very different 'code' to the way we live in the UK.

None of this is aided by the traditional parties failing utterly to put across the message that we need controlled immigation, and have obligations to look after refugees etc. Or by getting the applications processed quickly, or perhaps by housing the applicant on the many unused MOD sites across the country.

Now, we may totally disagree with them that change will only be worse, but we have to understand where they are coming from, and it is really unhelpful when people throw insults at them.

So are you saying that because Farage has whipped up a lot racists into a frothing rage, that I should forgive those racists, and attack Farage?
The trouble is, I still want to insult the frothing racists. Does that make ME the bad guy?
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
The major issue that we have always had in the UK is class inequality. We have, for centuries, had a ruling elite (politically and economically) that will seek to protect their wealth and interests at all costs. This is always the reason why at any given point we have a working class that feels disenfranchised and left behind. The ruling class like to keep the working class in check and deflect any attention from the fact that they are the real gatekeepers and drive the huge wealth and power divide. The best way to do this is to create a scapegoat, and immigrants/foreigners are nearly always at the top of the list, this has been prominent through the 20th and into the current century.

This is the real issue. If we lived in a society that actively sought to reduce inequality and levelled up society, immigration would for most be an irrelevance. If you are financially comfortable, able to access good quality public services and have a decent standard of living, you don't go looking for answers as to why you are struggling, and are therefore not susceptible to the lies politicians and other bad faith actors feed you in return.

Use of the term "working class" bothers me, since, IMHO, it is ill defined (for example, is everyone on this forum "working class"?), but, otherwise, I would agree. I think the "scapegoat" can be any readily identifiable group, it does not have to be foreigners/immigrants, those of a different Religion (say) will suffice, but, generally, foreigners/immigrants do fulfil the need to be "readily identifiable".
 
Use of the term "working class" bothers me, since, IMHO, it is ill defined (for example, is everyone on this forum "working class"?), but, otherwise, I would agree. I think the "scapegoat" can be any readily identifiable group, it does not have to be foreigners/immigrants, those of a different Religion (say) will suffice, but, generally, foreigners/immigrants do fulfil the need to be "readily identifiable".

Fair point, I tend to use it as sociologically in the UK we still generally tend to use the three distinct classes; upper, middle and working. I do agree though it is ill defined and relies upon a general social acceptance of what is meant by the term.
 

All uphill

Well-Known Member
Another thing Reform has taken from the Tories is a kind of selective nostalgia for a misremembered past.

I know some prosperous retired people who seem to genuinely believe that things were better in the 1950s. I occasionally remind them that they probably wouldn't have been playing golf into their 80s after twenty years of retirement back then.

The Tories seem to have forgotten the appeal of this and switched to full on nastiness.
 
OP
OP
briantrumpet

briantrumpet

Veteran
Fair point, I tend to use it as sociologically in the UK we still generally tend to use the three distinct classes; upper, middle and working. I do agree though it is ill defined and relies upon a general social acceptance of what is meant by the term.

If only Rick Chasey were around to remind us about the realignment around age and education levels. And how much he hates boomers.

To be fair, joking aside, all the polling does suggest he had a point.
 
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