Reform, and the death of the Tory Party

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Actually presta in my opinion, you are absolutely correct. Farage demanded that we leave the EU. This ended the Dublin 3 agreement that enabled the UK to return asylum seekers who had first arrived to other European states. The Dublin 3 agreement ended because of Brexit and there was no replacement.

Now he demands that the UK leave the EHCR, the ECtHR, and repeal the UK Human Rights Act. None of which restores the Dublin 3 agreement or creates a new agreement.

Can you show that the ''Dublin 3 works then? Because what i see, not only here but also in the countries where the ''Dublin 3'' does still apply is that it is completely useless. (especially in mainland europe it;s just a boomerang effect due to open borders.)

As the problem is not sending them away the problem is that Human rights laws don't allow us to properly send them back, to the taliban for example. and i know we have human rights and stuff but what about normal poeple don't they deserve to be protected?
Why is it these human right always seem to protect rapist and murderers and never their victims?

 

[Dorset Boy]

It was pointed out repeatedly that Brexit would makes their lives worse but they chose to ignore that.
Stupid is as stupid does and they are wanting to repeat their stupidity.
Change can most definitely be for the worse and that is coming from someone unlikely to be affected. I could feel sorry for them but I won’t. It’s the others who need to stand up against this snake oil salesman. You just need to look at the US to see where we are potentially heading.

But the people telling them Brexit would be even worse were those who had already repeatedly failed them over the last 25 years, so they didn't believe them, and still don't.

 

[Pblakeney]

It's a dilemma how to respond to wilful ignorance born out of desperation (or 'legitimate concerns'): you don't win them over by pointing out the ignorance, but at the same time, not pushing back on the ignorance simply lets it fester and become normalised & accepted. That's what Labour is doing at the moment - no sign of making a counterargument, for fear of upsetting people whose votes they want/need.

Meh, in my opinion the vast majority of this country’s population has not, or will not, face up to how dire the country’s finances are.
Either face up to it now or get hit twice as hard by the consequences.
I can see the Eeyore picture already. 😉

 

[Pross]

Brexit came about because there was a record turnout from low income households and those in social housing in comparison to a general election. Those people who felt the traditional parties and politics had utterly failed them over the previous 25 years as they had become poorer and everyone else wealthier.
Those people felt that they had nothing left to lose and that change, any change, could not be worse than the situation they felt they were in, and going out and voting would enable that change.

Now you can argue that Brexit has made their situation even worse, or at least no better, but at least understand why those people turned out to vote, and hence why the result was what it was.

Farage continues to represent that chance of change for those people, so if they again turn out to vote, and the traditional politicians continue to fail to improve their lot, Farage will be PM by 2029.

Was the 25 year period that bad for people? I didn’t vote for Blair but I would have said that was generally a decent period financially for ordinary people up until the GFC. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and especially the lies that took us into Iraq were major failings but financially I would say it was the strongest period since I started working in 1989. The post 2010 austerity was bad and affected the poorest most (even though I think it was necessary in the early days). The irony is that things were improving and Cameron could have been governing with a stronger economy had he not held the Brexit vote.

 

[briantrumpet]

Was the 25 year period that bad for people? I didn’t vote for Blair but I would have said that was generally a decent period financially for ordinary people up until the GFC. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and especially the lies that took us into Iraq were major failings but financially I would say it was the strongest period since I started working in 1989. The post 2010 austerity was bad and affected the poorest most (even though I think it was necessary in the early days). The irony is that things were improving and Cameron could have been governing with a stronger economy had he not held the Brexit vote.

The genius of the Brexit campaign was to say "It can only get better", when that was far from the truth. OTOH, an honest Remain campaign of "OK, the status quo might be a bit shît for many people, but is OK for most people, and is, on average, pretty good" probably wouldn't have won the vote anyway. Unicorns are a much easier sell to people who have been told that everything is shît and that they've got nothing to lose.

 

[All uphill]

Do you really think that the people you're talking to here will want to try to understand? Unlikely. Far more likely that they will continue with their 'we know better' attitude and the likely political outcome that both you and I have mentioned. Then they will then really have something to whinge about.

I am very keen to understand. I speak to Reform voting neighbours, as well as refugees.

Unfortunately our political system rewards people with a simple message, rather than a nuanced one.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I am very keen to understand. I speak to Reform voting neighbours, as well as refugees.

Unfortunately our political system rewards people with a simple message, rather than a nuanced one.

And do you understand them(reform neighbours) or just call them racists? Like the political elite has been doing for the past 20/30 years?

 

[monkers]

Can you show that the ''Dublin 3 works then?

Are you quite mad? I'm not required to show that Dublin3 works for the UK. This is because I clearly stated that we aren't in it since Brexit.

Dublin3 had a two fold effect - it provided the means to return people - only prior to Brexit the UK didn't employ enough people to do the paperwork enough of the time. However many were indeed sent back - just not as many as the system would have allowed. The second effect used to be that it was a deterrent. Inevitably some would try again but that it is by the by. The system was in place but underused. Of course there are simpletons who will blame ''lefties'' even though the Tories were in charge of it.

The point being that Brexit destroyed the tool for removing people and it provided a deterrent - now there is nothing.

 

[monkers]

I see you've signed up to the same knee jerk leftiebollox.

Actually Simpleton Steve, you've been complaining about repetition - but this is about all you can ever think of to say. There is no engagement in the argument with you, just repetitive nonsense. Still they do say that empty vessels make the most noise.

 

[Xipe Totec]

You seem a bit defensive about your re-use of the same pic. There is no excuse for the sort of behaviour shown in your standard pic, but you could at least try to get some others.

Just to show that there are other such events that you could find pics for, how about (say) the recent riots in Switzerland as I'm this article:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/migrant-riots-have-come-to-switzerland/

Or do they get a free leftie pass?

'Defensive'? How odd!

So, last time I checked this was a thread about Reform apparently supplanting the Tories as the natural political home for the UK's fascists, racists, millionaires (imaginary or otherwise) and morons, and not about events in other countries. I can check again if you like but I suspect I would reach the same conclusion.

I'm sure there are plenty of other pics of the same events from different angles, but if you want to see them, Google (or a search engine of your choice) will probably be helpful. Although I do try to be agreeable & accomodating (to a degree), I don't think it's my responsibility to cater for short attention spans or low boredom thresholds.

And anyway - I think it's an interesting and complex image with a number of different elements to consider. I mean - it's curious how many people engaged in this blatantly criminal activity have chosen to do so without concealing their identities, and it occurs to me it's possible that some may have so far evaded justice. I don't suppose those people would want the image to be repeatedly posted & circulated, would they? They'd probably prefer other images be used instead, perhaps of similar events in other countries. Wouldn't they?

Makes you think...

 

[Psamathe]

Richard Tice hits back at C of E criticism of Reform immigration policy
Deputy leader says archbishop should stay out of matter after Stephen Cottrell calls policy isolationist and kneejerk

Reform UK has engaged in a war of words with the Church of England over the party’s plans to deport all asylum seekers who arrive in small boats, after the church’s most senior bishop called the proposal “isolationist, short-term [and] kneejerk”.

Report made me realise that the religious organisations have also been particularly quiet. It's a humanitarian issue, about how we treat other human beings in desperate circumstances and something I'd also exprect the "Church" to have something to say about, to provide some "push back".

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Are you quite mad? I'm not required to show that Dublin3 works for the UK. This is because I clearly stated that we aren't in it since Brexit.

And as you might know, i'm not a Uk native, speak 4 languages and so can tell you in the countries that still have Dublin 3 it does not work. Not saying that they can't get poeple out according to ''dublin 3 terms'' but as we have free movement within the EU they can just as quickly turn around. But Moreover a more complicated patterns emerges and that is certain groups that just don't give a toss about our(and with our i mean western/european) laws and stuff.

And we don't have an real answer, and because of that Farage and co are so successful despite probably not being able to provide an solution either.

 

[monkers]

And as you might know, i'm not a Uk native, speak 4 languages and so can tell you in the countries that still have Dublin 3 it does not work. Not saying that they can't get poeple out according to ''dublin 3 terms'' but as we have free movement within the EU they can just as quickly turn around. But Moreover a more complicated patterns emerges and that is certain groups that just don't give a toss about our(and with our i mean western/european) laws and stuff.

And we don't have an real answer, and because of that Farage and co are so successful despite probably not being able to provide an solution either.

You live in the UK. I don't. I live in the EU. I also speak other languages, though not Dutch.

The Dublin 3 system is being phased out and AMMR is being phased in - around June 2026 from memory. It intends to operate more fairly on those countries facing the highest burdens. The UK will not be included, because of Brexit.

Will it work any better? Possibly not, because few countries have the administrative capacity in place.

Regarding your points about human rights in an earlier post - it's almost as if you don't expect that every cohort will contain bad apples. Yes there will always be migrant people who do terrible things, just as British tourists abroad commit terrible crimes.

The UK has a long record of sex tourism abroad. Those voicing ''legitimate concerns'' about migrant people implicated in abhorrent crimes in this country are absolutely silent about the sexual exploitation of children in places like Thailand. It's also come to public notice that many of the 'flag shaggers'' variously protesting outside hotels, forcing entry into hotels, setting fire to hotels, have been identified as wife beaters and child molesters.

Listen to the same group of aggrieved people in the UK, and you'll hear them making jokes about ''kiddy fiddling''.

The removal of human rights in the UK, will simultaneously emancipate the legal structures and statutes of legal protections, including for woman and girls.

 

[All uphill]

And do you understand them(reform neighbours) or just call them racists? Like the political elite has been doing for the past 20/30 years?

I try not to generalize. I listen to individuals and if they say something racist I'll challenge or question that.

What do you do?

 

[BoldonLad]

Why are all these cash strapped councils being urged to take legal action over the asylum seeker hotels?

According to a barrister on R5 this morning, if Epping goes to the Supreme Court they will fail and then have to pay out huge costs.

I have no idea if "my" local Council (Labour) intend to do so (although they have squandered lots of cash on other fruitless legal crusades), but, if they did, I would imagine it would because they are scared shitless of losing the majority completely (they have already crashed from having a single Tory Councillor, as the opposition, to now being only just in the majority, with Greens and "independents" forming the opposition.