Schooliform

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Focus on the other 94% and their needs, sure the extra revenue from changing private school funding will help, but it's a drop in the ocean with respect to improving outcomes in the state sector something that requires generational societal and parental change.
How and when will that change if the children of the wealthy and a few of the brighter or better coached kids from more ordinary backgrounds are taken out of the state sector? What’s the incentive for the ruling classes to give working class kids a boost up to the same standards? Exclusivity is as much the point as better facilities or lower staff to student ratios.

As a nation I don't believe we value education highly enough and that's reflected in our governments....
I reckon a good proportion of our parliamentarians are either privately schooled themselves or send their own children to private or selective schools.

The same arguments apply to public transport, housing, and health, probably other sectors too. If you can personally avoid the consequences of underfunding you‘re less likely to be very motivated to make meaningful or widely beneficial changes.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
How and when will that change if the children of the wealthy and a few of the brighter or better coached kids from more ordinary backgrounds are taken out of the state sector? What’s the incentive for the ruling classes to give working class kids a boost up to the same standards? Exclusivity is as much the point as better facilities or lower staff to student ratios.

I reckon a good proportion of our parliamentarians are either privately schooled themselves or send their own children to private or selective schools.

The same arguments apply to public transport, housing, and health, probably other sectors too. If you can personally avoid the consequences of underfunding you‘re less likely to be very motivated to make meaningful or widely beneficial changes.

It would appear you are right, at the "top" table it is over 60%, and, overall approximately 30%, which is way higher than the general population:

https://www.suttontrust.com/news-op...nt-schools-and-almost-half-attended-oxbridge/

As I said above, I cannot find figures for % of offspring attending fee paying schools.
 
It doesn't seem to me unreasonable for young people to be pissed off about being forced to spend a large part of their lives in an environment that they are not enjoying

I'd agree. This is a very old way of doing things; thankfully we've banned the cane but it's still a very disciplined environment if you think about it. My argument/point of discussion would therefore be: what should we do differently in schools now? I did have 2 friends who went to a Rudolph Steiner school. No uniform, fewer rules, and if they weren't enjoying a class they could just walk out and sit somewhere else. If main stream schools were to adopt the same approach, it would benefit many yes, but I think it would make non-Steiner schools seem even more "elite", and employers (especially councils and government) would take 100 years to even recognise that a kid schooled in a philanthripal setting is not a dosser
 
OP
OP
icowden

icowden

Legendary Member
My argument/point of discussion would therefore be: what should we do differently in schools now?
Invest. Invest. Invest.

Increase the pupil premium to £15,000 per pupil per year. Increase teaching pay by 25% to attract people into teaching who are *good* at it and start performance managing the crap teachers out of schools. Invest heavily in ensuring that both arts and sciences are well covered.

Ensure that all schools have good pastoral care and an in post counsellor. Reduce class sizes to 20 maximum for GCSE and 10 maximum for A-Level. Remove profit incentives from Academy Schools by insisting that surplus cash is invested in the school rather than the company. Cap directors wages.

Remove capacity at huge schools in favour of more, smaller schools. Provide incentives for the development of single sex schools (it has been proven that Girls and Boys work far, far better at single sex schools than mixed sex).

Require Private Schools to invest in state schools within their area in terms of facilities and mentoring - this has worked hugely well in Worcester where Kings School provides considerable support and mentoring to state schools.
 
In order for there to be actual data there would have to be actual research.

Can you imagine trying to design that research?

It could be done but the quality of the research would only be guessing at the causes at best. You take GCSE grades (or equivalent) in uniformed schools versus non-uniformed schools. And/or you do a trial over 10 years where 2 schools agree to adopt/drop their uniform policy. But that still wouldn't paint the entire picture. There are many other things to consider, for example those parents who choose schools with no uniform might or might not be more inclined to help and encourage their kids at home. so you'd then be theorising over an outlying cause. You would then have to look at all school rules and see if it's the sheer amount of them that has an effect, or whether it's just the uniform.

Just from my experience of school kids/cubs/scouts/clubs; I reckon most children will fall out of line if not kept within it. if done correctly, discipline works very well but only if supported once the child leaves the classroom. Knowledge of what rules are in place, and what the consequences are if they are broken, are largely arbitrary, but do lead to some sort of obedience. not necessary if you think obediance is a bad thing, but the way of the world as it is requires it. Only a select few can get away with being a free spirit and thrive in today's world. Look at the armed forces as an extreme example. Turn up in "mufti" at your peril. If you're told to jump, you jump. I've met a lot of service folk and they always liked wearing a uniform. Maybe the problem is that school kids don't have pride in their schools for whatever reason
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
Most of the parents of the 6% will be paying tax, which will be funding, at least in part, the education of the 94% in state schools.
A not unimportant point.

I had friends who taught in a private school for girls, and whilst some of the parents were stinking rich many were making real sacrifices for the sake of their offspring.
It related to a constituency the state system was letting down by giving a disproportionate amount of time to the underachievers.
 
I blame your private education ...

I went to a well thought of school with a head that believed we could equal or better the local grammar, but it was a long way from private.
 
How and when will that change if the children of the wealthy and a few of the brighter or better coached kids from more ordinary backgrounds are taken out of the state sector? What’s the incentive for the ruling classes to give working class kids a boost up to the same standards? Exclusivity is as much the point as better facilities or lower staff to student ratios.


I reckon a good proportion of our parliamentarians are either privately schooled themselves or send their own children to private or selective schools.

The same arguments apply to public transport, housing, and health, probably other sectors too. If you can personally avoid the consequences of underfunding you‘re less likely to be very motivated to make meaningful or widely beneficial changes.

I don't see how putting the 6% that go to Private school (and I don't agree with brighter) back into the state sector helps anyone.
The wealthy will always spend money to work around and above the status quo to deliver an advantage in whatever way they see fit.
The nations energy should be put into raising the standards in the rest of schooling such that in the 'best' of the state sector, moneyed advantage in terms of educational attainment becomes at best marginal.

Nobody is going to ban politicians that use private schools/health systems and nobody is going to abolish any kind of private education or health system either. All we can do is use our votes, protest, lobby, support our kids and our kid's teachers and our kid's schools. I'd still vote for an extra penny in the pound tax ring-fenced for education.

I was at private schools until around 13/14 years old and then went to state school - I basically span my wheels for nearly 2 years waiting for everyone else to catch-up. The gulf probably still exists.

Rudimentary stuff like, more teachers, more schools, more equipment, smaller class-sizes etc. will take vast amounts of money and will take more than a 2 term government. So we need a long-term cross-party strategy for a modern nation - I see no party offering that.

There is also defining 'best' in terms of education in such a diverse nation? In the the private sector it's easy - narrowly focussed in it's aims their task is pretty simple. Do we have a one-size fits all or do we design a variety of different education systems to mirror the different the needs of communities and people of different background and ambition? What's the role of the parents in education - in the private sector parental engagement is very high indeed. How do we drive ambition and motivation - the desire to learn? What is it we need to be teaching for the world we are entering? What are our competitors doing? What are the barriers to attainment and how do we dismantle them?
Big questions - no focus on answers that I can see other than Private is bad.
 

multitool

Pharaoh
Require Private Schools to invest in state schools within their area in terms of facilities and mentoring - this has worked hugely well in Worcester where Kings School provides considerable support and mentoring to state schools.

LOL at this bit.

From what I've seen of teaching staff, most public school teachers would get eaten alive in a state school.

The big problems in state schools are behaviour and class size. Tackle these and you'd probably go some way to solving the recruitment and retention crisis.
 

multitool

Pharaoh
You need to get out more then.


Agreed.

You went to a private school, and so do your children.

I'm not sure I'd come to you if I wanted to inform myself about state schools.

Equally, private schools exclude the most challenged and challenging sectors of society. Their staff aren't confronted in the morning with children whose parent(s) have sent them out shoplifting to help fund their drug habits, children whose parents have to work 3 jobs in order to make ends meet, etc etc etc.

Are you seriously going to tell me private school teachers somehow instinctively have the skills to deal with these children :laugh:
 
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